Saturday, July 24, 2010

Bill Donohue a vile representation of Catholics. Stop your deflections. Deflections distract from the truth... It's called selfish-salvation

Bill Donohue... Stop your deflections. Small children were -rrr-appp-ed and -sssso-dddd-omized.

Here's a compilation of comments in the Washington Post about Bill Donohue, Benedict XVI and the priest pedophilia in the Catholic Church

"..others do it, too"
"..others do it, too"
"...nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah!"
"'s OK for Christ's Church 'cause others do, it, too.

Except "others" don't claim to be "Brothers of Christ" and have an international criminal racketeering organization behind them to protect them.

The Catholic Church is the enemy against past and future victims as long as it allows this to continue, covers it up and allows the President of the Catholic League

to rub salt into victims wounds by denying this is going on, demonizing the victims, and stereotyping all gays as pedophiles.


Posted by: areyousaying | July 21, 2010 12:36 PM

My first "male-with-male" experience was when I was 14 and the other male was a "kindly priest" who befriended, groomed and brutally raped me.

Even though I never asked for one filthy semen and blood stained dime from Donohue's "holy church", he still demonizes us victims and calls us "gold diggers.

May this son of Satan be reincarnated as a lonely, awkward and vulnerable 14 year old boy who is befriended, groomed and raped by one of his "Brothers of Christ" while church authorities look the other way and transfer Christ's monster brother to another parish to abuse again.

Donohue is a vile representation of Catholics. Like Baptists who fail to denounce Fred Phelps even though he uses their name in his church, few Catholics do nothing to denounce Donohues hatred and stupidity. In fact, there are many who high five him like my Muslim co-workers did on 9/11.

As long as this Church claims to be above civil law and its penalties for felony child abuse and felon racketeering by covering it up, it is indeed the business of the rest of us and we will not be silenced or go away no matter how many prayers to Mother Mary.

Posted by: areyousaying | July 21, 2010 12:20 PM

Donohue is part of the problem. They deflect the responsibility of the church to report these crimes by trying to make it about the media, gays, women, etc. That other people abuse children is not something people aren't aware of. However, other organizations do not cover up, hide, and ignore these problems, or if they do, the people that do the cover up are reviled and fired.

The RCC still keeps Cardinal Law on staff in the Vatican, after he spent years covering up the crisis. They talk about doing penance while hiring lawyers to defend themselves against judgments in court. They are not interested in protecting anything but themselves, and people like Donohue are a big part of that, by providing Catholics with excuses instead of actions.

Posted by: Sajanas | July 21, 2010 11:47 AM

fr sajanas:
>...The RCC still keeps Cardinal Law on staff in the Vatican, after he spent years covering up the crisis...

Let's not forget roger mahoney, who for years KNOWINGLY shifted pedophiles from one parish to another and didn't bother to tell the new parish about Father X's "little problem". mahoney should be arrested on pedophile charges, tried, convicted and imprisoned for life for it. He deserves NO retirement pay, NO benefits, as they should be directed to his victims, the children.

Posted by: Alex511 | July 21, 2010 12:59 PM


Just wanted to make sure that people know the real facts, most were acts of pedophilia. To search out groupings and name them as post-pubescent as if the victim found it pleasurable is wrong - that is exactly what the RCC wants people to think. Most of the abuses were of pedophilia, that is fact.

The John Jay report came out before most victims came forward. And as we later find out, many were small girls too.

How is John Jay to know the facts when they went to the diocese for data and better yet, Donehue? They have no idea of the real classification of victims unless they involve in non-religious groups that help victims.

In those groups you will find the majority were victims of pedophilia. Another important note as I had mentioned much earlier below, had the church allowed alter girls and had parents allowed their daughters to be alone around priests, the lion share would have been girls by the same percentages as the rest of society.

Statistics only works when you don't shape it to some agenda and take all data into place. ie. When applying abuses, what % of males and females available. Then apply that to your abused.Likely you will find that a higher percent were girls. (not higher numbers, higher percent)

Just wanted people to know the truth. The bigger truth is that the Vatican is responsible for the worst crimes of all, the cover ups.

Because of these cover ups, many children victims later committed suicide and others mentally ill. Instead of the vatican writing documenting instructions for cover up and had they done what was good and compassionate - these children would have lived their potential instead of destruction. That is the issue that needs to be addressed, not all these other deflections, Donahue included.

Posted by: petelafond | July 22, 2010 2:09 PM

Donohue calls abuse victims "gold diggers"

Donohue links homosexuality to pedophilia:

Donohue denies Catholic child abuse"

Posted by: areyousaying | July 21, 2010 12:53 PM

Bill Donahue has a rude awakening coming, along with those he defends and shills for. The Vatican and its global empire are about to come crashing to earth because they have much more to hide and fear than the currently unfolding scandals and debacles. Certain ancient lies have way of coming back to haunt those who have gained so much wealth and power because of them.

Finishing the Mysteries of Gods and Symbols

There are far bigger lies than those told about why they methodically rape children and then conspire, as an international cabal, to hide and protect the perpetrators. Remember the saying, "The truth will set you free." Only the truth about certain ancient deceptions can prevent lies about God from being used to prey upon children (and others) and afterwards cow legal authorities from impartially performing their duties. Justice requires the truth...

Posted by: SevenStarHand | July 21, 2010 12:32 PM

Hail Mary, full of grace, let's blame it all on the gays ... yada ... yada ... yada

Posted by: DanielintheLionsDen | July 21, 2010 10:15 AM

Bill Donahue is a sick, sick man. His slavish devotion to a religious corporation has twisted his mind so that he is incapable of seeing a reality that is staring him in the face.

We could feel sorry for him if he wasn't actively aiding and abetting child abuse with his delusions. But he is. Like any other addict in denial, he needs to face the consequences of his actions and learn to see what his addiction has done to his mind.

Posted by: bigbrother1 | July 21, 2010 1:49 PM

Donohue has been like this for decades. He is a racist, a homophobe, and has drunk the Kool Aid right from Rome. He is all that is sick and twisted from this Church. He defends rapists and defends the priests and bishops who defend rapists.

He would have fit right in with the Nazis as they burned Jews alive, burned homosexual people alive, and tortured people. He would have justified their behavior. He is a very sick man and it is a crime that people actually listen to him.

When they're this adamant about their anti-gay feelings, I always wonder who the man is that they're sleeping with.

Posted by: Renshaw | July 21, 2010 4:21 PM

quote: "So, if the Catholic Church would do a better job of screening out Homosexuals .....Keep the homos and perverts out, keep more children safe!"

Let's start with the Pope and his boy toy Mgsr. Georg! That love affair has been going on for decades now. It would be wonderful if they just admitted their love for each other and kissed each other on the steps of St. Peter's.

You want to kick out all the gay clergy? No one would be left to say mass!

I have absolutely nothing against gay clergy. In fact, I prefer gay men to be priests.

The priest who abused my son twenty four years ago was kicked out of the priesthood three years ago. He's now married and has a twin boy babies. He was and is as straight as an arrow, he just likes little boys!

Posted by: Renshaw | July 22, 2010 10:35 PM


"No pedophilia crisis" says Catholic League

According to Dr. William Donohue of the Catholic League, the Catholic Church does not have a "pedophilia crisis." His opinion is contradicted by numerous court documents, statements of the U.S. Bishops, the Vatican, and Pope Benedict XVI, each of whom have condemned the pattern of covered-up case of clerical pedophilia. So if a pedophilia crisis is clear to these officials and to more than 60 million American Catholics, why does Dr. Bill continuously repeat that there is none?

To be sure, he admits to a problem of sexual abuse among Catholic clergy, but in a advertisement published in the New York Times (March 30, 2010), Donohue argues that ... "all along it's been a homosexual crisis." Citing the exhaustive study out of John Jay College in New York, Donohue notes that "Eighty percent of the victims of priestly abuse are male." The male-with-male character is sufficient to change pedophilia into homosexual relations in Donohue's way of thinking. On CNN (Rick's List, March 31, 2010), Donohue summarized this position in his unenviable style: " ...yes, there's a connection between homosexuality and sexual abuse of minors...They can't keep their hands off the boys, don't you get it?"

Perhaps this makes sense in some universe based on locker-room logic. But counting the frequency of male-with-male relations is not the same as scientific study of homosexual behavior. Since Donohue took his doctorate in the social sciences, he strays beyond his field of competence when defining the motives for sexual abuse. Such analysis properly belong to fields like psychology. You wouldn't want a hair-dresser's definition of a "split end" to be applied to a football coach's plays for a "split end" and social science's terms do not always apply to the behavioral sciences. As noted by Andrew Sullivan, Donohue confuses sexual orientation with sexual abuse. Educated discourse among Catholics deserves more sophistication, I think, and clarity of definitions is a good place to begin.

Sexual orientation, which is considered to manifest itself with the on-set of puberty, is about whom you seek to love. "Love" here is more than a physical act, but includes search for companionship, understanding, and support. These qualities are sought by both homosexuals and heterosexuals. The search may go badly, with exploitation and meanness intruding - for both homosexuals and heterosexuals - but the orientation is realized between mutually consenting adults.

Pedophilia, on the other hand, is about control of an adult person over a minor. It is clear from the John Jay data on clerical abuse that most cases (73%) took place before the minor turned 14, with more than a fifth (22%) being perpetrated on victims younger than 10 years of age. Children 13 or younger seldom function sexually as adults. But because the legal age of a minor includes all those under 18, the sociological numbers include many teenagers who approximate adulthood. The John Jay numbers show that the frequency of abuse diminishes as the minor grows older. Donohue confirms this fact by writing in his July 13th column: " ... if some guy tried to kiss me when I was 17, I would have flattened him." Presumably, the more the victim becomes adult, the less likely it is that the sexual predator can control them. And because such control is at the heart of pedophilia, sexual exploitation of children has been roundly condemned by the Catholic Church.

The vulnerability of the Church in this sordid mess lies principally in a pronounced reluctance to confront predators or take significant action to separate them from ministry. While I have little doubt that Dr. Bill want to end sexual abuse in the Church as much as I do, his faulty analysis is problematic because it might perpetuate the crisis. How can you adopt the proper remedy against what Pope Benedict called "the filth of the Church" unless you have a proper diagnosis? "Flattening" people with your fists may resolve the problem for Dr. Bill, but I doubt it is feasible approach for universal Catholicism.

I think there is an important difference between the abuse in pedophilia and homosexual orientation. Confusing them and using bludgeoning oversimplifications ultimately trivializes both of them. These, however, are not trivial issues.

By Anthony M. Stevens-Arroyo | July 20, 2010; 9:08 PM ET

Mr. Stevens-Arroyo - You have conveniently skewed the data provided by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice. 80.9% of the victims were male; the majority of the victims (77.4%) were between the ages of 11-17 so it is misleading to just state the majority of the abuse began before the age of 14.

Just for the record, Pedophilia is the definition for sex with pre pubescent children; post pubescent minors are identified as epheophiles.
If 81% of the victims were male between the ages of 11-17 I don't know what else you could possibly call this except homosexual activity.

Furthermore, abuse occurs in all walks of life within the secular world with females being the vast majority of victims.

The Protestant Church has a somewhat highter rate of abuse than the Catholic Church. These statistics come from information gathered from insurance companies.
Other religions have also not been immune to abuse allegation such as the Orthodox Jewish community.

I'll leave all of you with this one thought. Despite the absolutely vicious attacks against the Church because many don't like the moral postions of the Catholic Church, she will go on. The Catholic Church is not holy because of its members who sin like every human being does, it is holy because Christ is the head of the Catholic Church. It belongs to Him. He established it more than 2,000 years and promised to be with her until the end of time.

Posted by: mrsm117 | July 21, 2010 5:13 PM

it is holy because Christ is the head of the Catholic Church. It belongs to Him. He established it more than 2,000 years and promised to be with her until the end of time.

Posted by: mrsm117

And this is what Christ had in mind?

A time honored tradition of the old men of his clergy helping themselves to the bodies of little boys?

If so, I don't like your version of "Christ" very much. In fact, if I were him, I would change my last name because of you.
Posted by: areyousaying | July 21, 2010 6:01 PM

VOTE: Remoove The "Sovereign Nationa STATE" status Of the Vatican via U.N. et al. Also Remove All "TAX EXEMPT" Status's From The R.C.C. in U.S.A. Forever. NO Excuse! etc..

There is; The BUDDHISTs Churches, Monastery, Have little [Reported/Complaints] or Unknown Pedophilia incidents therein; likewise:

There is; The HINDU Churches, Ashrams, Not Manu Child Rape Cases,

There is; The JEWISH Churches Yeshiva, Not Many Child Rape Cases

Ther is; The iShlami Churches Madrasas, Not Many Child Rape Cases,

There is; The CHRiSTIAN Churches (none Cathoholics) Sunday Schools, (Some Child Rape cases & infidelity, not many : B
There is the Greek/Russia Orthodox Churches, Schools, Not many Complaints. BUT

but There is; The Roman-CATHOLIC Churches Parochial Schools System/INSTiTUTION and they Have Too Too Many VICTIMS, all around The World;

REVEALation: The Fact That the Roman Catholic Church/Parochial Biz folk committed such "MASS PEDOPHILIA CHILD RAPES" or Atrocities entitles the Roman catholic Church gets/wins The

GUINNESS-BOOK Of Church-Based Pedophilia & CHILD RAPES" cases on Earth & History.! Note: HISTORY is OUR "JURY" (Judge & Witness). Soo, NO, Nada, Excuse.

It is Tantamount To Hitlers Mass Murders. Raping 1 or 2 victims is understanding but mass Raping 10's Of Thousands????

WHEREFORE: The R.C.C. Is "Guilty As SIN"!& Curse, of Mass-Systematic Child Abuse. NO Exceptions nor Excuses plkeazzaaa.

A {RCC] perpetrated Child Abuse HOlocaust, aye.

Talking Blue in the face or cunningly Using Nice Sounding Names to Abusing the TRUTH (opposite Myth) of the Case via Church Leaders & their "WORD MERCHANTS" is not Going To Heal Anything. TODAY or Next 10,000 Years!

Posted by: probably-no-deity | July 21, 2010 5:45 PM

The problem in the Catholic Church is not homo-sexual priests; the problem is repressed, self-loathing homo-sexual priests, who are weirdly maladjusted. They should not be around children, and they should not be counselling or advising adults on anything.

From the very top, down, this is the ultimate Catholic problem.

Cahtolic homophobia destroys lives and families, and often leads to suicide, often among teens.

Posted by: DanielintheLionsDen | July 22, 2010 3:42 PM

Stop the abuses. Stop the deflection.

Stop denying victims of lost lives.

What have the catholics done to help victims? Don't insult me with therapy. And if you do, MOST were denied if the crimes were too severe.

I'll tell you what catholics do. Their donations pay for lobbyists to stop laws that would expose the pedo, expose the cover ups and deny victims civil rights. Great job catholics, you just joined the cover up effort to destroy the victims of already destroyed lives.

You chose evil over over those who need help. You deny by not staying on the other side of the road ignoring those harmed, but actually walking over and pouring vinegar in their wounds.
You are shameful.

Posted by: petelafond | July 22, 2010 12:39 PM


Now you're misrepresenting the John Jay Report. The age group with the highest amount of abuse is 10-14 according to the John Jay Report. Homosexuality takes place only between two consenting adults. No boy between 10 and 14 is ever an adult consenting to sex. Only you and Donohue are willing to call a 10 year old boy a gay man. You religious people have some really rotten views of children. You're certainly in the right church.

Just for fun, could you provide the "information gathered from insurance companies"?

Lastly, your church is dying. Because the evil beliefs and practices that it has thrived on for 2,000 years are no longer being tolerated by modern man. By that I mean religious wars, hatred and fear of women, scorn and disdain for children, persecution complexes, homophobic men wearing dresses and petticoats, and last but not least, people eating flesh and drinking blood.
Jesus Christ had absolutely nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

Posted by: SarahTX2 | July 22, 2010 3:42 PM

Posted by: mrsm117

Just for the record, Pedophilia is the definition for sex with pre pubescent children; post pubescent minors are identified as epheophiles.

If 81% of the victims were male between the ages of 11-17 I don't know what else you could possibly call this except homosexual activity.
Oh, really? Are you saying that makes it all better because they're hebephiles instead of pedophiles?
Are you saying the "homosexual activity" of the male victims between the ages of 11-17 was voluntary and their idea? Are you saying 11-year old boys seduced priests?

Are you saying the all victims were complicit?

Are you defending Donohue and saying that you are a lame, closed-minded apologists for your Church's vile crimes against children?

Posted by: areyousaying | July 21, 2010 5:58 PM

This writer is disingenuous by ignoring Homosexuality in the Priesthood. In Miami 11 out of 12 Churches have Gay Pastors--today.

Our seminaries were polluted with Homos. Witness the book “Goodbye (Heterosexual priestly candidates) Goodmen” by Michael Rose.

Last year a Gay Cardinal in charge of all things Priestly formation was caught by the Italian press soliciting homo sex.

The ignorance lies in our congregations not knowing that the infiltration of Gay priest led to sexual abuse and liturgical abuse. It is no mistake that the Tabernacles are hidden all over our churches. Look no further than the Gay Pastors (closeted) that moved a foundation of our faith out of sight.

Posted by: conrad031 | July 22, 2010 8:44 AM

Catholic votes count during elections, get it?

Why people still refer to the John Jay report daunts me. This was a report commissioned (paid for) by US bishops. They were only following the rules. Most data was gotten from the diocese, which by the way most cases were not reported to the diocese since it is a well known fact they continue to cover it up. Even today, most victims will not come forward, the embarrassment. In fact John Jay will tell your their data of child molesters is well underreported - there are many more child molesting priests (in some diocese of 20%).

These were predominately elementary school children. Had alter girls been allowed and had parents, at least most parents knew better to allow their daughters to be with men, then expect the volumes of girls to well outnumber males. Pedophilia is a crime of control. In fact pedos are still active in their 70's and 80's, fact. Another fact is that in states as NY, senators protect the pedos because they are catholic. Catholic votes count during elections, get it?

In some states, pedophilia is defined as it should be - under the age of 17. The true definition of pedophilia is crimes against a child who has not fully developed sexually, physically and mentally.

Then again, the RCC has their zombies who care less of the victim, those on selfish-salvation trips, and repeat deflections told them. We need to forget gays as the problem, that women can't be priests (RCC likes to create deflections that are controversies), everyone else did it (now how childish is that), and so forth. The RCC loves these because it denies the real truth.

What is the real truth? Many victims committed suicide and others permanently mentally ill due to the abuse and the church lobbies to stop laws that would expose the pedos, expose the cover ups and deny victims civil rights. These are the truths, period.

Why did victims take so long? Just as we have learned about the 29 year old woman Jaycee, abducted at age 11, she could have escaped or asked for help - yet she didn't. Why? It was not the physical captivity, but a mental one. And we have seen this over and over again. The same with other acts of pedophilia. Pedophilia, severe trauma, causes a physical change in the childs brain development. Some say, if not found, Jaycee may have been 50 or 60 before coming forward.

Now imagine the fears of a child, never able to concentrate again, who sees men dressed in black each day in schools and churches. What effect do you think this might have? Now imagine the child repeatedly threated from telling anyone. The child knows they mean business.

Justice denied by the worst criminals of all - those who help deflect from the truth and do not demand justice for these victims of lost lives. Just like the pedos helpers,

Posted by: petelafond | July 22, 2010 8:46 AM

Bernard Law should be in jail - not in Rome working for the Vatican.

It really doesn't matter what you call it. It doesn't matter that other people/organizations have had this problem. It doesn't matter what you personally think of the RCC.

The only thing that matters is that the RCC has (for decades or longer) systematically and purposely covered up the abuse and ensured that it would continue. They made every attempt to cover it up, and continued this practice well into this millenium (has it ~really~ stopped?).

Now that the world is outraged the RCC is doing it's best to ~appear~ to be taking the problem seriously - but choosing to retain Bernard Law (and giving him a nice promotion to Rome) just underscores how out of touch the RCC is about this whole issue. Bernard Law should be in jail - not in Rome working for the Vatican.

Whatever name you choose to assign this abuse (I choose pedophelia myself) is irrelevant. The problem is DIRECTLY tied to ~how~ the RCC "handled" this problem - and the lack of justice speaks volumes.

Posted by: joeAgnost | July 22, 2010 9:15 AM

My full comment was never published - especially my challenge to Mr. Stevens-Arroyo regarding his statistics and the statistics by the John Jay College of Criminial Justice. Why post only part of my comments. 80% of the abuse was with males betweeen the ages of 11-17. Priests having sex with males is homosexual activity any way you look at this.
Going to post this????

Posted by: mrsm117 | July 22, 2010 9:56 AM

To me, Bill Donohue aptly illustrates the premise of Dr. Peter Hull's Book, "The Peter Principle." The main premise of the book is based on this thought: In any Hierarchy, people are promoted to the level of their incompetence. It doesn't make any difference if it is in government, the military, the private sector or the Church, people naturally rise to the level of their incompetence, where they prove themselves to be so incompetent that they are no longer promotable. Lucky for every Catholic alive that Bill is not ordained into the Catholic Priesthood, because we can all rest assured that he'll never be voted in as Pope in the next conclave! He has risen to the level of his incompetence and he's doing an excellent job!
Posted by: JeannieGuzman | July 22, 2010 10:38 AM

You keep ignoring the REAL issue - how the RCC has covered up the abuse for decades!
The abuse is horrid - there is no question. The way the RCC chose to deal with the issue is the real crux of this issue. Call it a homosexuality problem, call it a celebit problem... it doesn't matter.

Until the RCC starts taking the issue seriously they will remain the enemy of rational, loving people. To start they could produce Bernard Law and have him face the authorities.... but it won't happen because I don't think they actually care. They only care about keeping power with the RCC.

Posted by: joeAgnost | July 22, 2010 10:47 AM

Note: --- The writer and few posts are ignoring the larger crimes, not pedophilia, but the cover ups by the RCC to protect their reputation over the lives of children. Had these children received help, many would not have committed suicide and others not mentally ill due to the abuses. The cover ups were the worst crimes of all. We find documents by the vatican that demand the silence be kept for purposes of hiding. They now pretend to act as if the silence was to protect their investigation, wrong. It was to protect their reputation over the damaged small child. Folks with common sense will tell you they lie when they say that keeping the silence does not mean not reporting. Reporting alone denies the demand of silence, see now? Big joke, and the joke is on those that believe them over the children rrrrappppped and ssssssoddddomized. This organization committed, crime tactics, the worst offenses of all and now twisting words and meanings to find an escape root. Please do not stoop so low to believing them and helping them by repeating their foolish nonsense, you are only damaging the children victims again. Is that christian?

They claimed they cared of children, yet they did nothing to help the child. All the documents were of cover up content. Likewise, Ratzingers letter of 2001, was one of the worst obstruction to justice yet. Not only did he refer all bishops to early "secret" documents, but he also demanded all cases be "extinguished" until the child reaches adulthood plus 10 years. Why? Because statutes of limitations in the largest states as NY now protects the pedo, the cover ups and denies the victim's civil rights. How much more damage to victims can this church impose on victims? Yes, even more. They sway dishonest lawmakers with promises if they stop laws that would let us know who the pedos are and stop the child victim from getting justice again. Imagine that, they pay lobbyists to destroy victims again.

Posted by: petelafond | July 22, 2010 10:50 AM

Now add this, they now claim that therapist in the past didn't know these pedos would do it again. Wrong, there are many documents to the contrary with exception. The exception were therapist who were also priest, this is the group that twisted logic. Pedophilia, bank robbery or violence against individuals - most therapist would NEVER guarantee those that committed these crimes wouldn't do it again. The RCC may fool some, but not the rational thinkers. Ignore the blaming on therapists, you all know the truth now.

Think about this for a moment, of all crimes - wouldn't you do everything possible to make sure a pedo wouldn't strike again? A bank robber, well we would incarcerate to punish and prevent, not rely on therapy alone. A child rapists? Good folks just wouldn't take the chance. And wouldn't it have been caring for the child if responsible parents were alerted to watch their children and know who to trust?

Stop the deflections, don't repeat what they tell you.

In fact with all those documents to keep the secret and their constant "pretend" to care for children, then why wasn't there a document that stated; get the child immediate medical attention, tell the parents so they can protect their child and tell authorities to protect other children. There wasn't simply because this organization cared for their own reputation over the lives of small helpless children.

All you are hearing are their excuses to bail out of the worst crimes imaginable, please do not reduce yourselves to their level. Don't help them by repeating nonsense. It wasn't gays who raped and even if that were the case, by along stretch, it wasn't gays who committed the worst crimes of all - the Cover Ups.

And finally, the reason many never came forward until much later in life was due to the mental illness caused by the abuse. In fact the more violent the pedo, the much longer in life it takes to come forward - some 50 or 60 years. And you want to let this group off the hook?

Keep it simple, simply post "Stop your deflections. Small children were -rrr-appp-ed and -sssso-dddd-omized. Many children later committed suicide and others mentally ill due to the abuses. That is the issue and it starts and ends there." Ignore their denial of women priests, that was a mere deflection to cause controversy so to minimize the real crimes. They have lots of deflections to separate people into clusters to ultimately distract from the real issue at hand. Just repeat what is in quotes and stay focused.

Posted by: petelafond | July 22, 2010 10:51 AM

One thing we know for sure is that we usually caught pedos in our public schools and bus drivers, we've been hearing this on the news forever. The positive thing here is that teachers have always been heroes for blowing in pedos - who wouldn't. Then again priests were heroes for protecting the pedo. All reports, including the Hofsta one, refer to older high school children. In fact they include "you look nice in that dress, Mary" as a form of abuse, read the report. It was rare for a public school to allow violent acts of pedophilia do go unpunished, most were let go. Thanks to the teachers, many women who cared for children first.

Now we also never heard of goons coming down from the public district office to threaten the child, and family, that they would get kicked out of the school district if they told anyone. Then again, the RCC did. In fact excommunication was the threat. Image your grandparents feeling the effects of a threat as that, it's like being sent directly to hell.

Keep the issue focused and ignore their deflections. Tell your lawmakers that you want complete justice and exposure.

Posted by: petelafond | July 22, 2010 11:05 AM

I would certainly say Cardinal Bernard Law made terrible choices in managing priests of his diocese, which included some of the most awful of abusers. That is certainly an example of placing too much faith in the ability of therapy to "cure" pedophilia. He was right to resign!!! Whether he personally broke the law (for instance, a "mandatory reporter" law etc), I don't know offhand, I'm not aware that he did--if he did in fact then I readily agree he should face up to that. But, if his disastrous mistakes didn't actually break a law himself, then on what grounds do you want to throw him in jail? As to being given other duties in Rome, or being honored with the honors with which all Cardinals are normally honored, let him do all this with modesty and a real sorrow for the people in his diocese who were harmed and the harm that came to the Church. He remains a capable person who can serve and work in the Church. He's not in charge of a diocese now. Nobody has any illusions about how seriously things went wrong under his leadership of his diocese.

The US Church's effective response to witnessing and suffering these grave mistakes include not only apologies and prayer, and making deep sacrifices in order to pay huge fines and settlement costs, but the formalization of canonical penalties for child sexual abuse, "safe environment" programs enforced in most if not all US dioceses, and in the US and other places "Numerous bishops ... stating that there is now "zero tolerance" for priests who sexually abuse: they will be dealt with by civil and ecclesiastical law and will be removed from ministry." (

Posted by: elizdelphi | July 22, 2010 3:24 PM


Using foolish deflections. The issue is cover ups of the rraapppes and ssssooodddomies of small helpless children.

Bye ELIZDELPHI, good people don't like those as you, you're evil.

Posted by: petelafond | July 22, 2010 11:10 AM

"Sexual orientation.... is about whom you seek to love."

What nonsense. It is not about love but about whom you have sex with. The Christian message is to Love your neighbour, but that does not mean having sex with your neighbour. Your idea of love is perverse.

Over 80% of the sex abuse here has been man-boy and only a fraction of priests are homosexual: that seems pretty conclusive and I do not need a Phd in science to figure that one out.

Control and sex are 2 very different things. You would not have the contol here if it were not for the sex. Being an authority figure is just an easy street for sex. Why not just admit that, inspired by ancient Greece, you are in favour of legalising man-boy love as are most homosexuals today.

Posted by: krasnit | July 22, 2010 11:14 AM

Weak, pompous defenders of the Church's history of clergy buggering boys and it criminal cover up try to distract us from the real issue which is mandatory requirements for reporting suspected abuse to civil authority.

It's more important for them that the Church not bow to civil law while turning their backs, once again, on past and future victims.
Crying "others do it, too" and blaming homosexuals and the victims is right out of Catholic Goebbels playbook.

Posted by: areyousaying | July 22, 2010 12:13 PM

2 words for you: Bernard Law.

The RCC gave him a promotion... he deserves jail.

That alone signals that the RCC aren't serious about this.

Posted by: joeAgnost | July 22, 2010 12:33 PM

They all, including Bill, Like to refer to the John Jay study, in justifying that it is an homosexual problem, and there is no doubt that there were, and are, many homosexuals in the clergy (just look at those red shoes and all that lace)

What they don't tell you is that the John Jay researchers specifically say, that it is not a gay problem, it is an undeveloped sexuality.

They claim to be good Catholics, but they LIE to support there prejudice. They cherry pick the evidence.

Just look at Maciel. Not only did he abuse seminarians, he kept assorted wives and mistresses, and then sexually abused his children. And this was a "conservative" Catholic.

Posted by: truecatholic | July 22, 2010 12:34 PM

What a big liar you are. You Catholic bigots wonder why there is so much Catholic-bashing in the world, when all you live for is to hunt down gay people and get rid of them by any means possible.

Being gay is a personality trait which has as one aspect, same sex attraction.

If you do not want gay priests, them subject ALL priests to investigation of their private lives, including, and especially, the Pope, and then kick them out, if there is a suspicion that they might be gay.

Adults having sex with children is not being gay. Straight people do that too.

Just blame all your problems on gay people and then everything will be solved.

If you hate gays, please do not justify it with God's blessing. It is some weird perversion inside of your own heart; and you should own up to and assert it, truthfully as your own persona prejudice.

The Catholic Church's witch hunt against gay people not only destroys individual lives, it destroys whole families. And it is even more hypocritical when it is plain and easy for anyone to see that the church is run by repressed, self-loathing gay men, going right up to the VERY TOP.

Posted by: DanielintheLionsDen | July 22, 2010 12:56 PM

Ignore those who deflect. Healthy and reasonable thinking people don't blame gays, they blame pedos and mostly the RCC's cover ups, the worst crimes.

These are deflections to take people away from the real damage caused to small children by the cover ups. Had the church instead done what was good and compassionate, and helped the child instead of their own reputation first, as the pope too, the child would have likely lived to their potential. Instead, many children later committed suicide and others mentally ill due to the abuses.

Deflections distract others from the truth, making those who help by repeating them as evil. It's called selfish-salvation.

Posted by: petelafond | July 22, 2010 1:09 PM

Stevens-Arroyo (S-A) massively distorts - I assume deliberately - the argument made by Donahue in the Catholic League advertisement. S-A provides the following quote from Donahue: "Eighty percent of the victims of priestly abuse are male" and then suggests that Donahue argues from this quote that "[t]he male-with-male character is sufficient to change pedophilia into homosexual relations." In fact, the full quotation from Donahue is as follows "Eighty percent of the victims of priestly abuse are male AND MOST OF THEM ARE POST PUBESCENT" (emphasis added). By failing to note that Donahue constructs his argument using both gender and sexual maturation as data points, and by deliberately suggesting that Donahue uses only gender as a data point, S-A abuses both his readers and his position as a contributor to On Faith. Regardless of whether the Post's readers agree or disagree with Donahue's arguments they deserve to have those arguments fairly represented and then debated in full rather than suffering through S-A's sophistic attack on straw man argument of his own devising. S-A owes Donahue and the readers of On Faith an apology for his sophistry.

Posted by: Publius30 | July 22, 2010 1:16 PM

What Donahue meant and still means is that it is a homosexual problem. He lies as most are post pubescent. Most were pre., get the fact right. There is only one line to draw, most were elementary students, how disgusting.

You missed the point. Looks you work hard at interpreting, the rest of us have heard Donahue enough times to catch his deflections and know what he is saying.

Children's lost lives, destroyed. That is the real issue. Your post was more deflection of pure rubbish.

Posted by: petelafond | July 22, 2010 1:30 PM


When they claim catholic bashing they are referring to to victims, their families and those who care for the sanctity of human life. In fact it must be catholics and good people who bash catholics. They crucify the victims. Sure places the victims, families and those who care for the sanctity of human life in good company.

Posted by: petelafond | July 22, 2010 1:18 PM

Petelafond - I understand that Donahue contends that the Church has a homosexual problem. My point is that Stevens-Arroyo (S-A) abuses the trust of his readers by utterly mischaracterizing the nature of the argument that Donahue uses in making his point. It is S-A and not I who actively deflects inconvenient facts. If Donahue actually were to argue, as S-A erroneously contends that he does, that the fact that most instances of reported abuse involve males-on-males is proof of a homosexual problem, then we wouldn't need S-A to tell us that Donahue's argument is silly because the silliness would be self evident. Donahue argues (in simplified form) that most cases of reported abuse involve males-on-males, and most of the male-on-male cases involve post-pubescent boys. These facts do not diminish the horrible nature of the abuse or excuse the Church's slow response to the abuse - let me repeat that I do not accept these facts as excuses for the how the Church addressed reported abuse. These facts, taken together, however, point to the possibility of a problem of predatory homosexual behavior that is dramatically larger than the problem of pedophilia. Both problems must be addressed by the Church.
Posted by: Publius30 | July 22, 2010 1:53 PM

SARATX2 - Your assertion in your first paragraph that "[h]omosexuality takes place only between two consenting adults" beggars belief! It is like saying that heterosexuality takes place only between two consenting adults, which, if true, would mean that by definition there is no such thing as heterosexual rape - a preposterous assertion! While homosexual acts can occur between consenting adults, they can also occur between consenting adults and minors (who by definition cannot give informed consent). The latter instances are properly referred to as homosexual rape because they involves homosexual acts. Neither Donahue, nor the Church make assertions about the sexuality of victims of abuse being a contributing factor in acts of abuse, and Donahue's argument that most instances of Church abuse involve homosexual predators has nothing to do with the sexual inclination of the victims of abuse.

Posted by: Publius30 | July 22, 2010 4:07 PM

Quite simple, PUBLIUS30

Real data is not out. The vast majority of cases have yet to be disclosed to; Boston Globe, John Jay ,... How are they to speculate and call it proof? They have little knowledge of the vast majority of victims. However, if you were engaged with victims, you would know the truth - over 60% are of pedophilia.

Call John Jay, they will tell you their data is grossly in error. After all, they were following the guidelines of the US Bishops who paid them.

Then again, how deceitful of the RCC; Pay Johyn jay, give them parameters, so that it looks as if it is an official report by some expert resource. Not what the report was meant for, John Jay will tell you.

Another fact, one bishop in NY protected a pedo and bragged how he had no pedos in his diocese. he denied a victim who is now 56 years old. Just two years ago, the priest he protected, sexually abused a little girl. Another bishop in upsate NY is a violent pedo, he is surrounded by pedos who acted as he did. A few are around children today. He gave John Jay a number of 15 priests of which only one was a pedo, without names of course. Victims in his diocese accuse him and almost 60 other priests.

You see, none of those are reported. NY state does not allow victims to come forward because the bishops lobby to stop laws that would enable them to come forward. Most don't trust the RCC, rightfully so, and will not go there.

Tell me know, how can all the statistics you claim by all those people and entities be true?

You people twist what ever data you can to mold it to your advantage.

Meanwhile, the truth has its hands tied behind its back because of the power and money of the RCC.

No one will find out the truth until cases are allowed to come forward. Any claim you or anyone else makes to the contrary mean zero.

These many priests are around children today and as long as the RCC owns the politicians, nothing changes - not even the truth exposed.

Posted by: petelafond | July 22, 2010 3:53 PM

Jesus, Joseph and Mary, of course priests who molest little boys are homosexual.

Doe that make the crime less heinous or the victims culpable?

Does that make all gays pedophiles or hebephiles or what ever words Catholics want to mince to divert the focus in their blind defense of these atrocities?

I wasn't a practicing homosexual at age 14 and never even thought about it much until a priest groomed and raped me. Then I had no doubt it existed and what it was. You Catholics are one sick religion if you believe 11 year old boys seduce priests.

What is wrong with you people? Are you so devoted to your church that you would destroy even more victims to protect its image? You make Di Vinci code and Angels and Demons sound less like fiction with every post.

Posted by: areyousaying | July 22, 2010 4:16 PM

Unless you are working directly with victims, not through a church, you will have no ideas of the volumes of abuse and that over 60% are of pedophilia. How would anyone know unless they had direct data. The RCC's money and power stop the cases from coming forward. The VICTIMS have no voice, they sure know how old they were when abused.

Now the gay crap.. Pedos need access to children. How do they get it? Well in the RCC, boys are alter boys, boys go to events with priests and boys are invited to the rectory. Girls were not allowed to be alter girls, most responsible parents would not allow a small girl to be with a man, a priests or not, and girls were not allowed to go to the rectory alone.

Boys were more available to pedos. Pedos don't care - boy or girl, just look at national statistics. If girls were not as available and boys were a super easy target, guess who the pedo gets.

Even in spite of all that, girls were sll abused by pedos. In fact one of the largest victims group is predominately female victims.
For resonable people here, I hope you can now see that real data is simply not available with regard to clergy abuse. Gays want a partner to enjoy ssseeexxx with them. Pedos control their victim, they don't look for enjoyment from the victim.

Until laws change, victims are denied the truth - they were rrraaappeeddd and ssssoooddddooommized by pedos. The RCC won't let this happen because they buy politicians to stopping laws that would.

Quit deflecting and harming victims with deflections of "gays did it", "most were not pedos". Your deflections cause damage to those already damaged. Quit being selfish. There are more victims who were abused by pedos, not gays.

If you want the truth, call your lawmakers and demand laws change, help the victims - don't continue to harm them with your selfishness and fabrications.

Posted by: petelafond | July 22, 2010 5:29 PM

Expect if there are any good priests, most have either left or were demoted, especially if they spoke out.

Most bishops knew of the volumes of abuse. Most cardinals knew of the abuse. Even Ratzinger when confronted with the Boys Town episode - selling boys for sssseeeex, tried to deflect back in the 90's. He made a comment to a Nebraska senator and others that there are far more acts of pedophilia in the US than any other country. He never knew this stuff would have blown up. Today he acks as if he is just learning about it.

Keep in mind, bishops, cardinals, popes and priests have dirt on each other. Not likely a bishop would make it if clean, the others would worry.

Look at the deflections, look at how they continue to deny victims, look at how they twist words and meanings, look at how they blame, look at how the pope says just enough without going too far,.. look at it all - a filthy organization that has covered up child abuse. How sick. Most people can now see the truth.

Posted by: petelafond | July 22, 2010 5:52 PM

The only problem there is in being gay is all the people who hate gay people for being gay; that's the problem.

Otherwise, there is nothing wrong with being gay. It is not bad; it is not wrong; it is not a sin; that is a false doctrine promoted by the Catholich Church, the Baptist Church, the Mormon Church, most other Protestant Churches, and Islam.

The homophobia of the Catholic Church and in fact its general sex-phobia is what is at the root of so much of its problems. Praying that gay people can turn straight and marry someone of the opposite sex is misguided.

After all, would a heterosexual person be happy married to a gay person? Why don't you test out your theory and marry one to see?

The attraction that gay men feel for other men is no more powerful nor depraved than the attraction that straight men feel for women. So there is nothing intrinsic in being gay that makes it a state of being any different than being straight; the Catholic phrase "intrinsically" disordered, is particularly insulting, considering the source.

What the Catholic Church teaches and promotes on this is nothing more than neurotic dysfunction, which is not helpful to anyone.

Posted by: DanielintheLionsDen | July 22, 2010 7:13 PM

In a previous post, you said, about gay people:

" ... some, after a period of chastity and healing, feel able to marry (someone of the opposite sex) ... "

If a gay person needs to be healed of their gayness, you are assuming that there is something wrong with them, to be healed. That is a false assumption.

What would you heal? How would you tinker with their psyche, their personality, their inner will, to get the gayness out of them? To do that, you would have to alter them radically. What if they do not want an outside force to alter them radically? What if they do not want a Priest to reach into their minds, and twist things around, so that they become a different person? To say that you love someone, and then to demand that transform into a different person is not love; it is personally destructive, and more like hate than love.

But the Catholic Church regards gay people as intrinsically disordered. That phrase was cleverly devised by a committee of theologians; it is a clever, tricky, and wiley phrase to isolate and persecute gay people.

To be instrinsically disordered is not a sin to repent and there can be no repentence or forgiveness. It is not an illness to be cured. It is not a psychiatric condition to be worked out.

Implicit in this phrase "intrinsic disorder" is that it is part of God's plan to create some people in this disordered state, and there is nothing that they can do about it, but wait for people like you to pray for them, which will in any event, not re-order their disordered state, since it is "intrinsic."

This is all poppy-cock. It is an incomplete, political resolution to a problem that the Catholic Church cannot understand, and cannot deal with. What good is a religion that cannot deal with reality?

You do not seem hostile, but you do seem very naive and misguided. A gay person in the Catholic Church is a tragedy. In an ideal world, such a person would get out of the Catholic Church and as far away from Catholic influence as possible. But often by the time a gay Catholic realizes this, a lot of the damage has already been done, which often cannot be undone.

Posted by: DanielintheLionsDen | July 22, 2010 9:43 PM


So you don’t think it’s a culture problem; it figures. Unfortunately, America is awash in the Sexual Revolution and the Church is caught in its ravenous net. However, the iconoclasts think you can have your cake and eat it too. The Church is the only one doing something about it. It's certainly not the iconoclast left wing; they're promoting it.

“Violence and pornography, which is a felony against the human spirit, are the atrocities of despair” Dr. Koop, former Surgeon General, explained, adding, “The people who commit them have an appetite for outrage. They devour what we cling to as civilized life.” And, they are devouring our public libraries, creating a “hostile environment” for normal women, children and men.

Reisman, J. (1990). Images of Children, Crime and Violence in Playboy, Penthouse and Hustler, U.S. Department of Justice, Grant No. 84-JN-AX-K007.

"It is time to identify what effect Alfred Kinsey, the father of the sexual revolution and sex education has had on the lives of so many.

"Since 1968, the ravages of divorce have severed more families each and every year than did maternal deaths in childbirth throughout the entire period from 1915 to 1998.

"The last 40 years have seen the percentage of persons living together as unrelated individuals increase from six to 16 percent of the general populace. By 1999 only 66 percent of the population lived in a married-couple family.

"In 1998 there were more than ten times as many women cohabiting as in 1960. In the year 2000, one in every three babies was born out of wedlock. The number of children living in single-parent families has more than doubled in the past three decades. And the list goes on.

"These facts are but the tip of the family-disintegration iceberg; obviously Kinsey does not merit all the blame, but his publications were influential and his disciples have been even more so.

"Kinsey promised "free sex" and "sex without consequences." Yet women and children have paid an exorbitant price tag, and the consequences are evident in the scourge of STDs, abortion, cohabitation, and disconnectedness.

"Since 1968, the ravages of divorce have severed more families each and every year than did maternal deaths in childbirth throughout the entire period from 1915 to 1998.

"We are fast approaching the point of no return with growing numbers of single-parent families. The restoration of marriage and family is no longer a luxury that would be nice; it is a necessity for the survival of American civil society. Thanks, Dr. Kinsey."

Posted by: TTWSYFAMDGGAHJMJ1 | July 22, 2010 10:07

Wednesday, July 21, 2010

United States -- Moral problems at the Vatican

Moral problems at the Vatican


Monday July 19, 2010

The widespread astonishment, contempt, and anger that has greeted the Vatican's decision to include the "attempted ordination of women" among the "graver crimes" falling under the juridical purview of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) has forced apologists for the new norms to issue explanations for how it's really not the case that (as I put it back on July 9) "Ordaining Women = Raping Children." The explanations boil down to distinguishing between violations of the sacraments and moral derelictions.

As Msgr. Charles J. Scicluna, the Vatican's abuse prosecutor, put it, "Sexual abuse and pornography are more grave delicts, they are an egregious violation of moral law...Attempted ordination of women is grave, but on another level, it is a wound that is an attempt against the Catholic faith on the sacramental orders." In other words, a rotten apple is not the same as a rotten orange, even though they both need to be thrown out. I could be fired for sleeping with an undergraduate, plagiarizing an article, or murdering my next-door neighbor, but that doesn't mean that those acts are equivalent.

Enough said? Not quite. That neat distinction between the moral and sacramental levels is, I'm afraid, bogus. Consider how the CDF came to be involved in sexual abuse cases in the first place.

Along with the new norms the Vatican issued a fascinating "Historical Introduction" explaining the evolution of this latest exercise in canon law, going back to the 1922 letter (reissued in 1962) that occasioned some heated back and forth after the NYT published its long article July 1 on Pope Benedict's time as head of the CDF. This account does not quite correspond with the analysis canonist and Vatican critic Fr. Thomas Doyle did a couple of years ago, but never mind. If your Latin is good enough, you can confirm from the original document ("Crimen Solicitationis") that the involvement of the CDF in abuse cases stems from the need to discipline priests who use the confessional for sexual purposes. [Update: English version here.] The fifth section of "Crimen" simply extends that concern ("mutatis...mutandis") to "very bad" sex crimes engaged in by clergy outside the confessional.

The point is that the original jurisdictional issue had to do with a crime that was both "moral" and "sacramental"--a moral violation of the sacrament, if you will. But is that even a meaningful thing to say, in canon law terms? Does the Vatican claim that it's not immoral to ordain a woman? Not that I've heard.

The crux of the matter is that the Pope and Curia have deemed it more important to give the CDF the power to try bishops for ordaining women than for covering up sexual abuse by priests. By their lights, the former is a more serious problem than the latter. By mine, that's a moral problem.

UNITED STATES -- New Vatican norms all about women

New Vatican norms all about women

Friday July 16, 2010

The new set of canon law norms issued by the Vatican yesterday was intended to win some PR points on the sexual abuse front, but its substantive goal is to ensure that no Roman Catholic bishop starts ordaining women. Far from being a maladroit add-on to the list of "graver crimes" (graviora delicta) subject to the juridical control of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), the ordination issue is the document's main business. That's my conclusion.

Talk to a canon lawyer and you will learn that there's nothing much new in the other stuff. Under the norms issued in 2001 by Pope John Paul II, the Congregation Formerly Known as the Inquisition already had been given jurisdiction over graviora delicta involving sexual abuse and the sacraments. If the statute of limitations needed to be extended in a given case, getting a dispensation was a routine matter. OK, child porn has become a serious "delict." But it's the formal acquisition of jurisdiction over "attempted women's ordination" that's the significant innovation. Although the CDF issued its own decree on the subject in 2007, now the pope has given the congregation formal procedural control over such cases.

There's more. In the 2007 decree, the CDF simply announced automatic excommunication for both the cleric doing the ordaining and woman receiving it. The new norm goes further and declares that the ordainer "may be punished by dismissal or deposition"--i.e. formally removed from the priesthood: laicized.

In her report in today's NYT, Rachel Donadio takes note of this addition, writing:

The revision codifies a 2007 ruling that made attempting to ordain women an offense punishable with excommunication. The new document said that a priest who tried to ordain a woman could now be defrocked.

What's important to bear in mind is that while the odd priest has participated in ceremonies to ordain women, proper ordination in the Catholic Church is the responsibility of bishops. Suppose a bishop--a Lefebve of the Left--were to start ordaining women, and not only as priests but also in due course as bishops. Then there's apostolic succession and a full-fledged gender-equal schismatic sect--call it the Society of St. John XXIII. That's the nightmare scenario the CDF has been equipped to foreclose.

If the Vatican had wanted to make clear that it didn't regard attempted women's ordination as being as serious a crime as raping children, it could have kept the 2007 decree as is. Yes, CDF spokesman Monsignor Charles Scicluna could have said, they're both graviora delicta, but the punishments are not of equal severity: A clerical offender can't be laicized for the former, only the latter. That's not the way it is. Try to ordain a woman, Archbishop Lefty, and we get to kick you all the way downstairs.

IRELAND - Irish Times - Church needs a sense of proportion and a little spin

Church needs a sense of proportion and a little spin


The Catholic Church goes around shooting itself in the foot and Peter Mandelson offends the masses

AH, THE Catholic Church: the only organisation left in the modern world that manages to conceive without spin. What, one wonders, is the opposite of spin. Is it, perhaps, thud? Anyway, in the era of media management, corporate- speak and public relations overload, the Catholic Church is pretty singular in its ability to be seen shooting itself in the foot at any media outlet near you. Doctors, it was once said, bury their mistakes; the Catholic Church buries its successes, and that makes them rather hard to find.

Therefore, the news that the Catholic Church included sanctions against those who ordain women along with its first major review of how it deals with clerical child abuse in almost a decade, came as no real surprise. One appreciates that ordaining women is a so-called “sacramental” crime, as opposed to child abuse which, as the Vatican’s chief prosecutor explained on Thursday, is defined as a “moral” crime – but still, lads. Still.

The whole thing is further ruined by the fact that in the document, Normae de gravioribus delictis, which was published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, disciplining those who ordain women as priests was lumped in, not just with the child abuse procedures, but also with the misdemeanour of celebrating the Eucharist with a Protestant minister.

Perhaps the faithful should start praying for the church to be granted a sense of proportion. Last week only the former British cabinet minister Peter Mandelson managed to offend so many people. “Peter is his own worst spin doctor,” said Labour lovely Ed Miliband. “He seems to have offended just about everyone.” And all Peter Mandelson (now Lord Mandelson) had done was to write in his memoirs that Gordon Brown was barking and that Tony Blair was a sissy about confronting this issue. In fact, in talking about Gordon and Tony, Lord Mandelson seemed to have been describing a marriage gone sour, although he did not scruple to report hard talk about a whole lot of other people as well. The younger kids in the Labour family are not so keen on having the dirty linen washed in public. And of course there is also a leadership contest going on, in which it looks as if Peter Mandelson supports Ed Miliband’s brother, David. This has been deduced from the fact that David Miliband appears to be the only person whom Peter Mandelson was careful not to embarrass in his memoirs. He does not come out and say that he supports David Miliband, you understand, you have to work that out for yourself.

Peter Mandelson, like the Catholic Church, was once rather wonderfully skilled at public relations. When in the upper echelons of the British Labour government he was so tactful, so circumspect and so politic that George W Bush – who liked him, apparently – called him “Silver Tongue”, according to himself.

Matthew Parris described Peter Mandelson last week, rather witheringly, as “a natural courtier”. In his memoirs, however, Peter Mandelson, now out of power and with nothing to lose but zeros off his publishing advance, decided to dish the dirt. So one of the most trusted insiders got his revenge in first – specifically before the books that are being written by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown.

Unfortunately we don’t know when or why the Catholic Church’s communication skills went for a hop. And an awful lot of people couldn’t give a flip – as Father Ted used to say – what the Catholic Church thinks about ordaining women priests, or even the measures it proposes to take against clergy accused of child abuse. In this case, as in so many others, the initials PC stand for Past Caring. In fact many of us are only surprised that the Catholic Church is still making headlines with this stuff.

On the subject of women priests there is little to be said, although personally I miss Sinead O’Connor in her clerical phase. She had many of the qualities that made up the ideal Irish priest: she looked terribly pretty in her dog collar and got on great with Gay Byrne. What more do you want? But leaving the whole women as priests thing aside, let us examine the de-skilling of the Catholic Church. Papists used to be a byword for slipperiness. There was a time when Catholics used to be pretty good at media manipulation – and not just during the Inquisition. Remember how, during the negotiations for the Belfast Agreement, the Protestants accused the Catholics – quite rightly – of being “Jesuitical” and using “weasel words”? Where on earth are all the Jesuits when you need them – gone to work for BP, I suppose. Where are the people who could come up with some weasel words and keep their organisation out of the mire? Where are the papist plotters and schemers who have been so venerated and so feared down the centuries? They should be in Rome, censoring the Vatican’s own documents before letting them hit the front pages of the world. Gatekeepers, as it were, but in this case preventing trouble from getting out, rather than preventing pesky outsiders and their problems from getting in.

Sad to say, it is the fact that the Catholic Church is so maladroit that is surprising, not the fact that it has been so unremittingly and unforgivably wrong on the issue of child abuse, and a whole lot else besides.

CANADA - Irish Times - Fighting for their identity

Pupils at the Shingwauk Indian Residential School in Ontario taken in the 1920s. Photograph courtesy of the Rev Benjamin P Fuller and Benna Fuller Fonds, The Shingwauk Project, Algoma University.

Kanesatake residents Susie Beauvais (right) and her sister Jane who witnessed their father struggling with emotional issues and alcoholism.

Fighting for their identity


Canada’s past is catching up with it as the native children who were brought up in residential schools seek accountability

IT WAS snowing the day that Michael Cachagee and his two brothers left home. Their mother took the boys by horse-drawn sleigh to the Indian agent’s office. Before surrendering her children, she told them they were going to a nice place where they would have lots of fun.

“We believed her,” says Cachagee, who was four years old at the time. The boys were taken to a church-run boarding school for aboriginal children in Canada. In the years that followed that fateful day in 1943, Cachagee would be forbidden from speaking his native Cree language. He would also suffer sexual abuse at the hands of three supervisors and a priest.

Cachagee returned home at 16, a “feral child” with little more than the shirt on his back and $12 in his pocket to find his mother had a new family. He found work putting out forest fires and labouring on the railroad, but quickly fell into violence and drug abuse, his spats of self-destruction punctuated by spells in prison.

It wasn’t until he was in his 40s that he started tracing the broken path of his adult life back to the suffering he had endured in childhood. “You never realise just how much pain you carry around with you. You just learn to live with it,” he says. “When you look back, that’s when it hits you. It’s like after a hurricane. You look around you and say: ‘Oh my God’.”

Cachagee, who is president of the National Residential School Survivors’ Society, is one of an estimated 150,000 native children who, from the late 19th century to the 1970s, were forcibly sent to institutions aimed at – as termed by government officials at the time – “killing the Indian in the child”.

The misguided drive to teach native children to think, act and speak like white people resulted in thousands of devastated lives and an as-yet undocumented number of deaths.

Today, like Ireland in the wake of the Murphy report, Canada is trying to come to terms with this dark chapter in its history. Last month, the country’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission launched the first of a series of national storytelling events in Winnipeg, Manitoba, to set the country on the path to healing. In parallel, it is researching unmarked burial sites on school grounds across the land in a bid to lay the ghosts of the past to rest.

The commission is clearly aiming for closure. But, in hundreds of native communities across Canada, the wounds are still red raw. Healing seems a faraway prospect on the tiny Mohawk reservation of Kanesatake (population 1,300), about 50km from Montreal. A microcosm of the dysfunctional patterns that have marked not only the lives of those who attended the schools, but also later generations, the community is afflicted by high rates of sexual abuse, psychological disorders and drug and alcohol addiction.

Until fairly recently, these problems were the community’s shameful secret. Nobody talked about it, says local health professional Mary Hannaburg. It is only now, in admitting to the issues, that people are starting to deal with the fallout of the residential schools era. But it’s a slow and painful process.

As a crisis line operator from 2006 to 2009, Hannaburg experienced at first hand the outpouring of grief, anger and confusion that followed public revelations about the schools. Callers were often surprised at her readiness to listen. “It was as if they were asking: ‘Why are you taking the time to listen to me? Why are you doing this?’” she says. “People didn’t think they were important enough.”

In her current role as mental health specialist at the local clinic, Hannaburg bears regular witness to the psychological chaos reigning behind closed doors.

It’s not unusual to see former students who suffered a “violation of their boundaries” at the schools going on to abuse their own. In this emotionally distorted environment, where people tend to have trouble expressing their complex and conflicting feelings, large numbers have turned to alcohol and highly addictive drugs such as painkillers, crystal meth and heroin to blot out the pain. “And so the cycle goes on,” she says.

Local resident Susie Beauvais says her father closed down emotionally after watching his younger brother drown in a frozen lake. Breaking down in tears, she recounts how he scrabbled over the ice, trying to save the five-year-old boy. Like so many other children, he was buried on the school grounds in an unmarked grave. The parents were never notified. The remains were never brought home. Her father, who seldom talked about his experiences at the school, sought solace in the bottle.

Hannaburg describes the emotional numbness prevalent among so many survivors and their families as a “disconnectedness”.

“It’s like the love has been snuffed out. There’s an absence of joie de vivre , an inability to give a word of praise. People become closed, harsh, stoic.”

She has identified cases of dissociative identity disorder, where people develop multiple personalities as an escape route for pent-up emotions, as a “way of not going insane”.

As chief Gordon Oke, a member of Kanesatake’s band council, points out, the fallout from the residential schools era is just one of many challenges confronting the community. A quick glance at a fact file compiled by the Assembly of First Nations – the main political body representing native communities – reveals a litany of depressing statistics. Native communities post high rates of suicide, diabetes, tuberculosis and HIV/Aids. Overcrowded living conditions and a lack of basic amenities such as clean drinking water are a fact of life in aboriginal Canada.

It seems that Canada’s first nations are doing battle with the demons of the residential schools era in third world conditions.

Mary McDonald, principal of the local elementary school, describes how the bleak prospects on reservation have engendered a pernicious sense of victimhood among residents. Part of the solution, in her opinion, lies in claiming back the identity and culture that was snatched away by the residential schools system.

McDonald, who is of mixed native Indian and Irish ancestry, has made it her mission to teach community members the Mohawk language. “If you’re really going to fix the Indian problem, you have to look at how you educate people, so they can be self-sustaining,” she says. “Understanding your language and who you are is fundamental. Once you have that basis, you can move on.”

As the Truth and Reconciliation Commission begins its work, the question of what “moving on” actually means is moot. Hannaburg believes that damaged communities need to feel a sense of justice for the healing process to begin. Deep down, however, native people suspect that nobody will be held accountable for the wrongs of the era. There is an innate sense that the decisions over how much truth will be needed for reconciliation have already been taken by the government and the churches involved (Anglican, United and Catholic).

The commission, which has been hamstrung by political disagreements over its mandate since its inception in 2008, has come in for widespread criticism over its lack of investigative powers. Under the terms of its mandate, it cannot subpoena documents or witnesses. Recently, historian John Milloy, the body’s director of research, expressed his frustration over the Catholic Church’s invocation of privacy laws to avoid handing over documents naming individual members of the clergy.

Milloy’s remit as the body’s director of research is to determine the location of unmarked burial grounds, the numbers of children who died and the causes of death. Documented cases cite tuberculosis, hypothermia and drowning as common causes. More blurry, however, are allegations of death by torture and medical experimentation.

Any claims emerging from the commission’s research will be passed on to police services, says Milloy by phone from Winnipeg. But, it is not yet clear how this will work in practice.

The search for truth has been complicated by money. With large numbers of survivors having claimed compensation payments handed out as part of the 2006 class action settlement (former students are eligible for CA$10,000 for the first year of attendance at schools, plus CA$3,000 for each subsequent year), it seems the page has already been turned. As Roland Chrisjohn, a professor of native studies at St Thomas University in New Brunswick, puts it, the public’s attitude towards demands for greater accountability is: “What do these Indians want now?”

For better or for worse, the country’s best hope of bridging the yawning gap with its native communities rests on the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Cachagee, who describes himself as a “warrior, in both a physical and psychological sense”, will be fighting every step of the way to ensure the memories of the living and the dead are faithfully transcribed into the country’s history books. He relives his experiences at the Shingwauk school in Ontario on a daily basis.

“Our home was lit by candles and oil lamps. We didn’t have electricity back then. Then, I arrived at this school with bright lights everywhere. Now, when I’m in a mall, I’ll be overcome all of a sudden. I’ll have flashbacks and go back to being that little boy again.”


* The suicide rate among natives is more than twice the national average. Suicide is among the leading causes of death among natives between the ages of 10 and 24, with the rate estimated to be five to six times higher than that of non-native youth.
* The prevalence of diabetes among native Canadians is at least three times the national average, with high rates across all age groups.
* Tuberculosis rates for populations on reservation are eight to 10 times higher than those for the Canadian population.
* Aboriginal people make up only 5 per cent of the total population in Canada but represent 16 per cent of new HIV infections.
* As of May 2003, 12 per cent of native communities had to boil their drinking water and approximately one- quarter of water treatment systems on reservation pose a high risk to human health.
* About 70 per cent of native students on reservation will never complete high school.
* Unemployment rates for all native groups continue to be at least double the rate of the non-native population.

(Official statistics compiled by the Assembly of First Nations, sourcing Health Canada, Statistics Canada, the National Aboriginal Health Organisation and Indian and Northern Affairs Canada)

UNITED STATES -- When the Church is Abusive: When is Church a Controlling Cult?

When the Church is Abusive: When is Church a Controlling Cult?


By Rev. Jenine Mason

When the Church Is Abusive: When Is Church a Controlling Cult?

I was sickened and saddened when I came across a website with information regarding a church where I knew of some of the people in the congregation in the past. It had been years since I had taken a deeper look at this particular church and had a very strong check in my heart as to whether not so good things were going on. I consulted a California based cult watching organization regarding the church and they had said they were well aware of the ministry I spoke of and had been watching it. This was at least 17 years ago. I remember I prayed fervently for God to bring the darkness into the Light so that people who might be treated unkindly would be set free from the control and manipulation. When God finally revealed the darkness it was more then I could stand as I read the court dockets of the trial concerning the proclaimed Bishop of the church. The court proceedings were filled with horrible sexual secretive acts between the men of the church which included at least one known minor. The abuse went beyond this. It had to in order for them to hide their abusiveness. One abuse led to another. Yet as always, God reveals these things openly eventually. When people won’t explain their actions, you better believe that there is some type of secret problem that is going on that causes them to not be open. Any honest person lives their lives in the open and when asked will reveal what is going on in their life whether it is a good thing or not so good. Unfortunately the dishonest ones who hide their indiscretions can be more than harmful but life altering horrible to those who are vulnerable to their actions.

As with anything, everything with our faith walk in Christ is about relationships. I am and have been a strong advocate against domestic violence in the home and in fact had been delivered from that type of situation many years ago. I am thankful for strong and believing women who came to my aide during those years or I might not be here right now to write this article or anything else for that matter. Church abuse is the same and people in abusive cultish churches need deliverance from them.

You might or might not know that abuse takes many forms. It can be physical, emotional, verbal, manipulation, control, or anything that takes away a person’s right to dictate their own lives. Abandonment is also abuse and if done very strategically by the person who abandons, it is also a control issue as well as emotional torment. If anyone abandon’s a person without disclosed cause, for any other reason than abuse happening to them, or to save those around them, it is emotional abuse.

Cult or abusive churches have nothing to do with doctrine, they have to do with control, manipulation, and the taking away a person’s right to live their own lives and make their own decisions with either threats of “going to hell”, abandonment, scorn, or defaming.

As I read the court testimonies of the above mentioned litigations regarding sexual, emotional and manipulative abuse, my heart sank and I have to say that it sent me to my knees in tears. Yet before you stop and say to yourself as least some of the ministries you have been in have not had that, please read some of the possible abuses here and ask yourself candidly if these have happened in the churches you have been, or are, involved in. Some of these are from the cult church abuse website authored by a couple who had once attended the church I speak of. I will add a few that come to mind as well. I will provide you with the link to the church abuse website but I have to warn you that if you decide to read the court trial dockets, they are very explicit and disheartening. Below are some of the suggested forms of control or abuse in cult churches from the website

Constantly changing requirements

Members are kept off balance by continuous changes in the way day-to-day business is conducted. Done under the guise of improving efficiency or maintaining flexibility, it generally results in intensely painful crisis management.

"Black and white" thinking

Complex situations and concepts are often reduced to "catch phrase" simplicity in order to limit free thought.

Multiple levels of membership

Most groups have an inner, devoted core with secretive doctrines and/or practices, and an outer congregation that provides a good image to present to the rest of the world.

Deceptive recruiting or "staged" commitment

When joining a group, new converts are not told the 'whole story' concerning what will be expected of them as a member.

Excessive workload/activities

Members are kept as busy as possible, or at least prevented from spending much time alone.


Most groups expend lots of energy in making sure they know where members are and what they're up to. Often includes requiring constant communication or sending 'more experienced' members to 'check on' others.

Exclusive doctrine or special insight

The group has special knowledge of the scriptures, or a direct line to God (via the leader). As such, they are 'special' and often act accordingly.

Front Groups

Cults will often start businesses or community service organizations that perform one or more of the following functions: (1) Generate income, (2) Recruit new followers, (3) Improve the group's image in the community, (4) Provide employment for members so they can be more closely controlled.

Double Standards

The leadership is free to do things that are verboten for "regular" members. They receive special privileges and benefits for no reason other than the fact that they are "in charge."

(The headings which are written in blue are links to other pages on the website. To read them please go to the website and connect with these links under the “about cults” tab.)

I’m going to add a few more control issues that are also manipulative and take away the rights of faith members:

*Telling who a person can or can’t marry because they are not in the church or don’t hold to the same doctrine.

*Backing a member into a corner regarding some perceived sin with a group of people in order to shame the member into submission to the churches rules and regulations.

*Telling a person they will go to hell if they don’t tithe, give offerings, or submit to any other controlling desire of the church.

*Isolating a member from others either in their own family or in the Body of Christ, or the church itself.

*Taking control of a person’s financial affairs.

*Telling someone what they can or can not wear. (As in Christians can’t wear a bathing suit if they are a true Christian. Come on folks, we live in a society where this is acceptable and you can’t tell me that a true Christian can not go to the beach or a community pool or they are not a Christian?)

*Shunning people if they leave the ministry or church and having others snub them.

*Using the Bible as a set of black and white rules and regulations instead of a love letter from God to be used only to enhance and better a person’s life. The Bible is filled with life lessons to make our lives better and there are grey areas within those lessons. A good discerning person will know and understand when those lessons are being used to make a person conform to works, rules, or church organization laws.

*Using open prayer as a means of control, manipulation, or to push one’s own agenda. (For example, “Dear God, please help Ira to see that he needs to come to his senses and not be friends with his neighbor because that neighbor is not a good Christian. This is done openly with the person or a group of people to manipulate someone to act a certain way or to push an agenda, not God’s free will).

*Telling people they can’t use their title as Reverend, Bishop, and Pastor etc. We use titles in this society to identify who we are. We call people by Mr. or Mrs. We can also call someone Reverend if that is what they are. That person is ordained to a certain calling.

*Telling people it is prideful to be educated and to use our credentials. Education is a personal choice and something to be proud of! Extended education is not for everyone but for those who choose it should be able to display what they have earned as in BA, MA etc. Someone who has gone through extensive education has run the “race with diligence” and should be proud!

*Telling someone they better conform or are going to suffer God’s judgment due to their actions. We do not determine what will eventually be judged by Christ in the time of His coming. Our God is a God of love and grace. We live in a time of grace. We are to walk in love and not act as God to those we are around. This is quite different then giving guidance in love.

These are just some and I am sure I could come up with many more. The main thing is to watch for the taking of a person’s right to choose on their own. Also love, acceptance, and inclusion is withheld if someone does not choose what the church determines is the right way for them in a cult or abusive church. God’s church and ministries are for the teaching and leading of God’s people in order to bring Christ’s power into the lives of those who participate. It is also for the preaching of the Gospel and for the ministering to God in worship as community. It is meant to be a place of love, acceptance, freedom, and grace. If it is not these things then it is not Christ like and could be abusive or a cult.

I remember worshipping in a church once and the Pastor made the statement that we looked like a bunch of dead frogs when we worshipped or that we had sucked a lemon. This is verbal abuse! He also had stated that we were going to hell if we did not tithe. What is a person to do if they are on their last dollars? Then the message of faith in God is preached and the story about the widow and her tiny offering. Offerings and tithes are to be given to the church on behalf of God with a joyful heart and out of the love for God, His people, and mission. How about charging a person to pray for them? I’m sorry but prayer is free and so is the Gospel message! They are gifts from God and never should anyone be asked to give money to be prayed for! Counseling is a bit different. The Bible tells us that we prosper when we have many counselors. Some are chosen to be professional Biblical counselors by trade and then some counsel on behalf of ministry. Just make sure that the counselor is a wise and Godly person. You can always discern someone who is giving bad advice. No one is perfect, and no ministry will ever be perfect. If one of these issues is in a church it might be remedied. Yet, please, whatever you do, when you encounter those who are power hungry or trying to “Pastor please” to make it to the top, when all people are not treated the same, when “favorites” are chosen and others are made to feel “less than”, think again about where you fellowship! You might be saving yourself and your family a lot of pain and suffering along life’s highway.

Don’t let anyone interpret the Bible for you. You have God’s Holy Spirit within you and you can interpret it yourself! This does not mean we can’t listen to our Pastor’s message if he or she is a wise and Godly Pastor. We are Christians and we need to be respectful of those who are chosen by God to lead but if that leader is not respectable then we can make an objective and wise decision to not follow. We are not door mats. We are God’s chosen children and He is very protective of His kids!

This article might be offensive to some, and enlightening or thought provoking to others. We live in challenging times. Our unified efforts and exchanges of love and compassion are important. Giving of what God has given to us is the biggest blessing of all in life! Please be on the lookout that our privilege is not being abused or our freedom which has been gifted by Christ Himself! If we have not freedom then Christ died in vain!

PENNSYLVANIA -- Editorial: Vatican needs to stop demonizing women

Editorial: Vatican needs to stop demonizing women

Daily Times

Four years ago on July 31, eight women defied Roman Catholic Church teachings and were the first in the United States to be ordained at a ceremony in Pittsburgh conducted by a group called Roman Catholic Womenpriests.

They included Joan Houk, a 66-year-old married mother of six and grandmother of five who helped run two Roman Catholic parishes that did not have priests.

The lack of priests nationally and internationally was one of the reasons Sister Jean Rupertus, a member of the Sisters of St. Francis of Philadelphia since 1960, supported the ordination of women in the Roman Catholic Church.

“There are many people denied the liturgy and the sacraments because of the lack of priests and most of those people are in poor countries and live in poor areas of the United States,” said the Middletown resident after learning of the women’s ordinations in 2006.

Among the new priests was Eileen McCafferty DiFranco, a Philadelphia grandmother who celebrated Mass in the chapel of a Methodist church in Lansdowne at the invitation of an Old Catholic of the Beatitudes pastor who rented the space.

A former teacher and neonatal intensive-care nurse who was working as a registered nurse at Roxborough High School in Philadelphia when she was ordained, she was moved to join the priesthood by some of the hardship she had witnessed.

“I’ve seen things you couldn’t imagine both as a nurse and at school,” said DiFranco, who was close to completing her master of divinity degree from Lutheran Theological Seminary when she was ordained.

Instead of converting to other religions that have long allowed female clergy including Episcopal, Methodist and Jewish denominations, DiFranco was determined to hold her own Roman Catholic faith to a higher standard of inclusion, despite the Vatican’s resistance.

“Of all the things that make up who we are, only gender causes this anger and need to retaliate,” observed DiFranco.

Cardinal Justin Rigali, Archbishop of Philadelphia, issued a statement noting that Roman Catholic Church law, based on scripture and tradition, does not permit women to be administered Holy Orders, the sacrament of ordination.

“Although I attempted to dissuade Mrs. DiFranco from participating in this invalid ritual, nevertheless, she proceeded to do so. Now I am left with no alternative than to report this matter to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome, as I am obligated to do so,” said Rigali.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome was formerly headed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, who handled clerical sexual abuse complaints among other duties. He has come under fire in recent months for reportedly allowing known abusers to stay in the priesthood long after church tribunals determined their guilt.

If she were excommunicated, DiFranco figured she would be in good company considering the Roman Catholic Church did the same to Joan of Arc, Galileo and the leaders of several early religious orders.

Noted DiFranco, “An excommunication is a decision made by fallible men who have made mistakes in the past, egregious mistakes in the present and who will make mistakes in the future.”

That fallibility seems to be resonating more than ever with a document released last week by the Vatican that relegated Roman Catholic clergy who ordained women as priests to the same punishments as those found guilty of sex abuse. Bishops who attempt to ordain women and women who attempt to be ordained in the Roman Catholic Church, will be excommunicated just as priests who sexually abuse children will be.

Both sex abuse and the ordination of women are grave crimes against the Roman Catholic Church, insisted Monsignor Charles Scicluna, the Vatican’s sex crimes prosecutor.

“An attempted ordination of a woman is grave, but on another level. It is a wound. It is an attempt against the Catholic faith on the sacrament of Holy Orders. So they are grave but on different levels,” said Scicluna.

Meanwhile, the supposed new and improved Vatican rules governing clerical sexual abuse fail to make any mention of turning suspected abusers over to civil authorities, unlike the guidelines issued by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops Charter for the Protection of Children in 2002 when the scandal broke in America.

They also do not provide for members of the hierarchy who knowingly harbor pedophile priests.

The pope’s spokesman, the Rev. Frederico Lombardi, said the papal decree only applies to canon law and that “just civil laws must obviously be respected and put into practice by men of the church.”

Women of the church apparently aren’t considered up to the task.

Vatican officials should spend less time demonizing women and more time ensuring the prosecution of pedophiles. They are a danger to children of all faiths.


Kristine Ward wrote on Jul 21, 2010 7:44 PM:
" Congratulations to the Daily Times for succintly hitting the nail on the head in its concluding paragraph of this editorial

"Vatican officials should spend less time demonizing women and more time ensuring the prosecution of pedophiles. They are a danger to children of all faiths."

There was never a day, or a year, or a time when it was right to abuse a child. Only when Cardinal Rigali and his brother Cardinals and Bishops see themselves "obligated" to act on the "grave" matter of the rape and sodomy of children by priests and nuns will the Church truly move to reform. May that be soon for the sake of the children in their care. In the meantime anyone who suspects abuse, please report it to the police. "

barfly2802 wrote on Jul 21, 2010 7:44 PM:
" Nobody is demonizing women, sounds like a typical self centered individual. Almost sounds like you want to rewrite the rules just like every self indulged pompus American, things aren't going your way so let me make a big stink about it. Rules are in place for a reason, nobody is holding you hostage to your faith. Other faiths can accommodate your wish. From the statements though I doubt you have fully embraced Catholicism much less Christianity. Your whole purpose in life is to fulfill and align yourself with the will of God, obviously you are trying to assert your own will above that of the Fathers'. Confession appears to be in order for several women here. Actually there is a place for you in the service of the Lord it's called the convent. Or do you think that is beneath you, or do you believe that is not your calling, because it's obvious the Lord is not calling you to be a priest! "

Report Abuse

barfly2802 wrote on Jul 21, 2010 7:51 PM:
" People please bring a better argument to the game than pedophilia, like somehow that legitimizes your argument, you have failed to convince me of your point because it your argument appears weak now, you should have written the article to stand on it's own merit. I might as well say all gay people have aids or all black people are criminals just to legitimize a point I am trying to make rather than writing a well constructed article with support statements. "

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