Thursday, August 27, 2009

Benedict XVI is the chutzpah of the Catholic Church‏ and should be ashamed of himself

Benedict XVI and the Opus Dei covered-up the John Paul II Pedophile Priests Army www.jp2army.blogspot.com for more than 26 years. They were too obssessed with silencing the Jesuits who work with the poorest of Christ see John Paul II Millstone www.jp2m.blogpsot.com for details.

The chutzpah of the Catholic Church

The Catholic Church should be ashamed of itself after the exposure of its tolerance of pedophile priests.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=9322&page=0

In the State of New York the Catholic Church has been fighting against the passage of the Child Victims Act of Assemblywoman Margaret Markey “with all their hearts, with all their souls and with all their might”. The proposed legislation extends the statute of limitations on sex crimes against children and opens a one-year window for adult victims to sue their childhood perpetrators with no statute of limitation at all. Aside from granting the victims the opportunity to receive justice and some level of compensation for their suffering, similar window legislation has proven to be the best way to help identify scores of sexual predators that were unknown to law enforcement in both California and Delaware.


The Church has postulated a conspiracy theory that sees the sole purpose of allowing adult survivors of child sexual abuse to sue their molesters as a way for enemies of the Church to do it harm.


The Church should be ashamed of itself after the publicly humiliating exposure of its tolerance of perverted behaviour by pedophile priests, and its cynical cover up and intimidation of victims it has perpetrated on a system-wide level. It truly gives a new definition to the word “Chutzpah”, for the Catholic Church to speak out in any but a humble and apologetic tone.

A grand jury in Long Island, New York, for example charged the Archdiocese there of stalling victims of abuse from pressing charges until the statute of limitations was up, so that the Church would not have to answer for the molestation perpetrated by their priests. In Los Angeles, Archbishop Mahony is being investigated by the FBI for the crime of placing priests who were known to have molested children in the past in positions of authority over children without notifying the children’s parents.


Aside from the audacity of an organisation claiming to speak for God placing their financial concerns over the welfare of victims, the tactics used in defending their “assets” by the Church have been extremely “un-Christian”. In Brooklyn, Bishop Nicholas Dimarzio has, in a Machiavellian threat, warned legislators that if the Child Victims Act passes, he will shut down churches in the precincts of those who voted against it.


Ironically, given the Church’s record of aiding and abetting pedophile priests, legislators who care for the safety of the children in their precinct would do well to view this outcome as a positive promise and not as an unwanted threat.


Child sexual abuse, however, knows no religion and is certainly not a plague that is limited to the Catholic Church, and therefore the Church is hurting children of all faiths when they use their considerable political power in New York to deny justice to survivors who have been abused. While the bill was in fact never intended originally by anyone to be “anti-Catholic”, once the Catholic Church has shamefully turned anti-children, they have made it so, because they have once again become actively pro-molesters and the bill is most definitely anti-molesters.


As a Jew, I cannot say I am totally shocked at the lack of concern by representatives of the Catholic Church over the past several decades (and indeed centuries) about the brutalising of innocent children by adults in power.


After all, this is a religious institution that only 60 years ago turned a blind eye to the wanton murder of one million innocent Jewish children in countries that were mostly dominated by practitioners of the Catholic religion.

Although the last Pope did “apologise” to Jewish survivors (the children are not with us to have heard it), not so much has really changed in the Church's sense of morality or sensitivity for child victims. This was recently on display by Pope Benedict’s appointing as a bishop a priest who openly denies that the Holocaust even happened and that Jewish children were gassed to death, and by his pursuing “sainthood” for Pope Pius XII, labeled by historians as “Hitler’s Pope”.


For those children who survived the death camps to have the Church once again treat their feelings like so much political nuisance, reminds them of how little they can trust their Catholic “friends” at a time of need.


But adding insult to injury, in New York, home to many Jewish children as well as Catholic, the Church now seeks to deny all children the right to their day in court when they suffer their own private Holocaust-like trauma of rape, sodomy and sexual molestation. It has been shown repeatedly by psychologists that for many victims of childhood sexual trauma, it often takes growing up into adulthood to even remember, yet alone understand the nature of the harm inflicted on them. Sometimes symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder are only manifested once the victim has children of his or her own. And even for those who have suffered from symptoms for years and have had their lives forever damaged, many need years of professional help to regain the emotional strength it takes to confront their victimisers.


To withhold access to restitution for their medical treatment as well as for emotional pain and suffering, is to tell victims of all faiths and ethnicities that their pain is not our concern and their cries will continue to fall on deaf ears. All this from the "religion of love". Apparently the Church, once again, demands from its victims that they "turn the other cheek", while the Church itself aggressively continues to protect itself from being exposed for the destruction of lives that it has caused.


Unfortunately, as a Jew, I am also ashamed at witnessing history repeating itself with the neglectful behaviour of many of my own people. While almost all mainstream Orthodox Jewish groups such as the Rabbinical Council of America, The Rabbinical Alliance of America, The Jewish Board of Advocates for Children, the Orthodox Union, and Ohel Children’s Home and Family Services, and our two Orthodox Assemblymen Dov Hikind and Speaker Sheldon Silver have joined Protestant groups, Catholic victims advocacy groups such as the Survivor Network of those Abused by Priests and Voices of the Faithful, and other non-denominational child advocate groups in lobbying for the Markey bill, our brothers and sisters of the Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist branches of Judaism have been deafeningly silent about the spiritual holocaust for children in New York, much as they were during the Holocaust of Jews in Europe. While these branches of Judaism have impressive records in America of social activism, when it comes to standing up for victims of abuse their voices have not been heard.


To be clear, in traditional Torah Judaism, based on halachic law, there is no legal precedent for statutes of limitations on crimes of violence or harming another, neither in civil nor in criminal law. While not speaking directly to the issue of time constraints on claims of damages, one of the most famous dictums in the tort laws of the Talmud states "Adam Muad Le'olam". A person is always responsible (for the damage he/she does). Furthermore, every Jewish person has a biblical obligation to speak out for children’s safety: “Thou shall not stand by idly thy neighbour’s blood.”


Legislators of all religious backgrounds would be wise remember that one out of five or your constituents has been the victim of sexual abuse before the age of 18, although many have not been vocal about it. When facing your own conscience and being tempted to play politics with the lives of innocent children, remember that NO God, not the God believed in by Jews, Christians or Muslims, (and not even the God that atheists reject), could possibly countenance the violation of innocent children. We must all come together in support of our children and pray that the One Merciful God, will in His infinite wisdom, truth and justice, grant our legislature the common sense and the courage needed to enact both the Child Victims Act and other legislation to protect the children He has entrusted to us.


To withhold access to restitution for their medical treatment as well as for emotional pain and suffering, is to tell victims of all faiths and ethnicities that their pain is not our concern and their cries will continue to fall on deaf ears. All this from the "religion of love". Apparently the Church, once again, demands from its victims that they "turn the other cheek", while the Church itself aggressively continues to protect itself from being exposed for the destruction of lives that it has caused.


Unfortunately, as a Jew, I am also ashamed at witnessing history repeating itself with the neglectful behaviour of many of my own people. While almost all mainstream Orthodox Jewish groups such as the Rabbinical Council of America, The Rabbinical Alliance of America, The Jewish Board of Advocates for Children, the Orthodox Union, and Ohel Children’s Home and Family Services, and our two Orthodox Assemblymen Dov Hikind and Speaker Sheldon Silver have joined Protestant groups, Catholic victims advocacy groups such as the Survivor Network of those Abused by Priests and Voices of the Faithful, and other non-denominational child advocate groups in lobbying for the Markey bill, our brothers and sisters of the Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist branches of Judaism have been deafeningly silent about the spiritual holocaust for children in New York, much as they were during the Holocaust of Jews in Europe. While these branches of Judaism have impressive records in America of social activism, when it comes to standing up for victims of abuse their voices have not been heard.


To be clear, in traditional Torah Judaism, based on halachic law, there is no legal precedent for statutes of limitations on crimes of violence or harming another, neither in civil nor in criminal law. While not speaking directly to the issue of time constraints on claims of damages, one of the most famous dictums in the tort laws of the Talmud states "Adam Muad Le'olam". A person is always responsible (for the damage he/she does). Furthermore, every Jewish person has a biblical obligation to speak out for children’s safety: “Thou shall not stand by idly thy neighbour’s blood.”


Legislators of all religious backgrounds would be wise remember that one out of five or your constituents has been the victim of sexual abuse before the age of 18, although many have not been vocal about it. When facing your own conscience and being tempted to play politics with the lives of innocent children, remember that NO God, not the God believed in by Jews, Christians or Muslims, (and not even the God that atheists reject), could possibly countenance the violation of innocent children. We must all come together in support of our children and pray that the One Merciful God, will in His infinite wisdom, truth and justice, grant our legislature the common sense and the courage needed to enact both the Child Victims Act and other legislation to protect the children He has entrusted to us.


About the Author

Rabbi Dr Asher Lipner, PhD is an ordained Orthodox Rabbi with a Doctorate in Clinical Psychology. He is the Vice President of the Jewish Board of Advocates for Children. The opinions expressed in the article are those of the author only, and do not necessarily reflect the position of any organisation.


Firstly, the author of this 'attack' should get his facts right. Pope Benedict did not appoint Bishop Williamson who denies the Holocaust.
The Bishop was appointed by the schismatic Society of Pius X.
Secondly, whilst the German and other Nazis operated in Catholic countries, just what could the local priests do ?they did not collaborate and in most cases assisted as far as they were able without losin thier own heads which would serve no purpose.
Thirdly, for a people who were persecuted themselves and clandestinly took physical refuge in a country belonging NOT to them, the Israeli Jews are no example of moral living in regard to their neighbours whose lands they appropriated in the name of money.
Posted by wubble you, Friday, 21 August 2009 11:20:11 AM


In view of the on-going stream of revelations re catholic (and indeed other christian denominations) priests and pedophilia, it is a complete mystery to me as to why any conscientious parent would let their children anywhere near a faith-based school or a church of any denomination whatsoever. As if the mental abuse is not bad enough without added physical brutality as well, if indeed there is any real difference between the two.

Clerical pedophilia has been going on for years and will continue as long as the clergy maintain a totally unnatural lifestyle, and are supported in their irrational self-proclaimed position as 'keepers of the public morality', whilst enjoying unfettered access to children.

Posted by GYM-FISH, Friday, 21 August 2009 1:23:54 PM


Looking at histories of the Catholic Church in Australia and around the world, it looks as though paedophilia has been treated as a company perk.

The only comandment they have paid attention to is the eleventh:

"Thou shalt not get caught."

Who else would want to join a men's club where you can't have relations with a woman and dress up in frocks?

When I see a catholic priest, the first question that springs to mind is "Is he bent?"
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 21 August 2009 1:42:27 PM


There seems a lot of emotional manipulation in this article. It seems to me that the author is using the plight of child abuse victims to promote his own agenda against the Catholic Church in particular and in favour of Jewish ‘victimhood’ in general.

This is just another type of abuse.

If the author is concerned about child abuse he would keep a sense of proportion about his criticisms. Child sexual abuse, as he says is not the sole domain of the Catholic clergy. He acknowledges it in other churches as well. It is rife throughout society. It happens in private homes a lot more than it does in church situations. The most common perpetrator is the father of the victim. If he is really concerned about child sexual abuse he should focus his attention where most of it takes place.

Why does he feel the need to draw parallels with the Holocaust? Is it not a bad enough thing in its own right or is it his real aim to keep the holocaust before people’s attention.

“Furthermore, every Jewish person has a biblical obligation to speak out for children’s safety.”

If that is the reason why he speaks out then it is the wrong reason. He speaks out not because of a genuine sense of justice and concern for children but because of an obligation. Many other people fight for the rights of children because it is natural to do so. They do not need to be told. People who act out of religious motivation must always have suspicion cast upon their motives. When they write articles like these which single out a particular group one must question their real motive. It does nothing to fix the problem and tells us nothing new. Everyone who abuses a child should be dealt with by the law and a great deal is being done for victims of abuse. To use the issue for nothing else than promoting your own personal agenda makes you a perpetrator of taking advantage of other people’s suffering.
Posted by phanto, Friday, 21 August 2009 2:37:45 PM



Phanto,
I doubt anyone would disagree with your assertion and the author's about child sexual abuse not being the sole preserve of RC priests.

However, Priests especially RC priests are held out as Jesus' representatives by the RC church to their flocks. That is where the difference and I mean huge difference lies.

Their resposibility to protect the most vulnerable in society is well recorded in scripture with Jesus' most severe words of warning to anyone who hurts a child.
Posted by Ninja, Friday, 21 August 2009 3:23:39 PM
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As a 'religious' man and child 'advocate' perhaps you should be more concerned with children like Mohammed al-Dura being shot dead in cold blood by Jewish soldiers rather than preaching to us about the Catholic church.

And if you want to play that game where you pretend to have higher morals than the rest of us because of the holocaust then perhaps you could start by telling us what Jews have done for non-Jewish victims of child abuse, or non-Jewish victims of anything for that matter. Christians have a proud history of helping people in need; Jews, it seems, have a proud history of helping Jews.

Hey, but at least you got in a mention of Jewish victimhood.
Posted by dane, Friday, 21 August 2009 6:10:18 PM



It seems to me that the point about criticizing the "catholic" church re its child abuse and sexuality problems, and its collective inability to be staight about pedophile priests is that the church claims to be the only source of truth in the world--even ABSOLUTE truth.

Plus it claims to be the only bastion against the alleged rot of "relativism", especially in relation to sexual morality. The right-wing catholic blogo-sphere is full of this pretentious righteous posturing

It is thus quite rightly hoisted on the petard of its own pretentious hypocritical double-mindedness.

Yes members of other organizations, both religious and secular have their sexual exploiters and abusers too.

But they generally do not pretend to be the only source of truth, even absolute truth, in the world.
Posted by Ho Hum, Friday, 21 August 2009 6:11:49 PM



"When facing your own conscience and being tempted to play politics with the lives of innocent children, remember that NO God, not the God believed in by Jews, Christians or Muslims, (and not even the God that atheists reject), could possibly countenance the violation of innocent children."

Very true Asher. I don't believe that if there was a higher being in charge of the earths morality, they would allow such evil to happen.
Therefore I find it easy not to believe in a God at all.
In my view, paedophile religious leaders should be even more strenuously punished than the other scum paedophiles.

Posted by suzeonline, Friday, 21 August 2009 8:43:48 PM



Just because the church says that priests are special and even priests themselves say they are special it does not make it true. They should be criticised for their sexual abuse and not for their self-delusions. They should be treated like anyone else who commits the crime of sexual abuse. You cannot add years to their punishment because they have been deluded by their own hype. If being deluded was a crime we’d all be in strife. They are just human beings and are entitled to the same justice as any other human being.

People act outraged because priests do not do live up to the image that they and others project of them. They only have that image because some have put them on a pedestal for their own needs. A big part of the problem is the failure of some parents to respond appropriately when children report sexual abuse at the hands of clergy. The parents do not want to believe it to be true because it threatens their dependence on religion. Children do not put themselves in danger – their parents do. It is not only a question of child abuse for the parents it is also a question of why people need religion.

Having an exalted view of any human being is very unhealthy. No one is better than anyone else by virtue of their public role. Being more outraged at the behaviour of priests as compared to other citizens says more about the outraged person than the priest. Many people who have resentment towards the church for other reasons often jump on the bandwagon and love to point out the failure of priests to live up to an image that they no longer even subscribe to.

Conversely you could argue the duty of care that a father has towards his daughter may be much more serious than the duty of care of a priest towards that same daughter. Why are we not equally outraged by incest? It does not diminish the crime just because a father does not promote himself as a bastion of virtue
Posted by phanto, Friday, 21 August 2009 9:44:14 PM



Dear phanto, The stats on sexual abuse of children by their fathers is 1%. Why are you suggesting that fathers are responsible for most it, when the evidence, is, that somebody else is responsible, 99% of the time? One, common, problem is the new, "bad boy", BF, that many deadbeat, single, mothers, take up with, after, leaving a perfectly good father, because they were a little bored, and too lazy or stupid to do some couples counselling.

All posters, so far, why have none of you, (feminists especially) mentioned the plight of girls, in catholic, all girl schools, which are run by nuns? Are you seriously, suggesting that, no, equally frustrated, celibate nun, has never, ever, been involved in lesbian sex with other nuns or girls at a catholic girls school, anywhere in the world?

Are you seriously suggesting that no nuns have ever been responsible for physical abuse or cruelty?

I personally have met and spoken with survivors of both genders who were beaten by nuns, or, the gardener, following orders, from the senior nun.

phanto, "methinks, the pot, is calling the kettle, black" and you, may be pursuing an agenda, of your own, to, blame all abuse of children, on men, and completely ignore the abuse of children, by women. Do you support, the rights, of every deadbeat, single, mother to neglect and abuse her children?
Posted by Formersnag, Saturday, 22 August 2009 12:08:08 PM



The eloquent Rabbi Ashar Lipner has been misinterpreted and critically maligned by readers of OLO. Seems critics are more intent on discrediting the Author, then evaluating the gist of his article.

The appointment of pro-Nazi Bishop Williamson may not have been physically appointed by Pope Benedict, but to be sure, everything emanating from the Vatican must be sanctioned by His Holiness's imprimatur. Thousands of priest ( all religions ) monks, nuns were purged, incarcerated, and sent to the gas chambers. Those evading prosecution practiced a pseudo religion, and at the time, were assidiously careful to preach anything but the Nazi propaganda. Some call them collaborators. Pope Pius XII.

The diasporas Catholic Church is suffering for the sins of a few paedophilic priest, just like any giant Corporation with hundreds and thousands of employees. Today, every parish in Oz,is operating below par - given the seminaries are bereft of zealous recruits. More lay members are ursurping the duties performed by priest. Eventually, their numbers will cease. Priest are being imported from Poland, Nigeria, and Vietnam to mitigate the scarcity.

Many priest,particularly in the USA, have been prosecuted, defrocked and goaled for their sexuality. In Ireland, South America, Mexico and the Phillippines, priest are venerated, and their sexual proclivities, abuse, etc are tolerated, even condoned. Some, lead a double life, supported by their parish, to the extent of rearing their offspring. In Ireland, the Government supports the clergy to rear orphans, unwanted children etc.

The Holocaust should be remembered, as a reminder of man's inhumanity to his siblings. The " master race " is a myth, and no one is more superior than his neighbour. The Jewish, " final solution " liquidation was only a side show. Academics, gypsies, foreigners, deviates, collaborators etc made up 60/70 per cent of the inmates at Auschwitz, Belsen etc.

Well done Rabbi.
Posted by dalma, Saturday, 22 August 2009 12:15:15 PM


Formersnag, yes I spent 12 years in a Catholic girls college and yes some of the nuns were cruel to us. They doled out physical punishment to us, but at no stage did I ever hear of a nun committing sexual abuse on children.
There probably are some twisted nuns somewhere who may have done this, but if so, then I am sure there would have been plenty about it in the press!

>"One, common, problem is the new, "bad boy", BF, that many deadbeat, single, mothers, take up with, after, leaving a perfectly good father, because they were a little bored, and too lazy or stupid to do some couples counselling."

Hey what about the single mothers left holding the baby when fathers have run off in fright at the responsibility? What about the fathers running off with another woman? Many of these men are quite happy to have sex with these women, but don't deal with the results very well. You can't lump all single mothers in the same basket Formersnag.

I do agree though that many paedophiles prey on single, vulnerable mothers to get access to their children, just as they become Priests or teachers to get close to children.

This does NOT mean that all men are potential child-abusers, just that most of those convicted of the crime have been men. This fact cannot be disputed
Posted by suzeonline, Saturday, 22 August 2009 6:19:18 PM



Formersnag - The stats on sexual abuse of children by their fathers is 1%. Why are you suggesting that fathers are responsible for most it, when the evidence, is, that somebody else is responsible, 99% of the time?

Just because there is no evidence for something doesn’t mean it is not true. Until recent years there was no evidence of sexual abuse among the clergy but now we know it has existed for decades. I suggest it is much more difficult to admit that you have been abused by your father than by your local priest. It would be even harder to bring criminal proceedings against your father.

This discussion is about sexual abuse and not about other types of abuse. No one is saying that there are not other types of abuse perpetrated by both men and women
Posted by phanto, Saturday, 22 August 2009 8:02:02 PM
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dalma,

The fact the holocaust was even brought up in an article about Catholic priets and child abuse shows how politicised and meaningless it has become. Where is the connection?

Jews have long used the holocaust to claim some sort of moral superiority over the rest of us - even condescending to designate some people during the second world war as 'righteous gentiles' for helping Jews. This, of course, implies the other millions who didn't help Jews were somehow immoral. This includes the 15 million Russians who perished and the millions from other countries who gave their lives to stop Hitler. A continent destroyed, 25 million dead and hundreds of millions homeless and destitute. But they weren't Jewish so we don't hear about them.

And as for your canard about not forgetting so its not repeated. Well, it has been repeated. In Cambodia, in Bosnia and in Rwanda. But again, these victims weren't Jewish so I guess they don't count.

Perhaps you could ask your 'eloquent' Rabbi what Jews did to help the Cambodians during Pol Pot's reign of terror, or how much aid he sent to victims of Rwanda's violent genocide?
Posted by dane, Saturday, 22 August 2009 8:04:03 PM


Thank You Rabbi Dr Asher Lipner,

From the Almighty's lips to your ears!.
May the Loving Creator of the Universe forever shine abundent Blessings upon you
and yours! :)

May the Spirit of Truth & Wisdom live in the mind & hearts of all men like a bell
for the sound of echoing Justice to reign!

:)
Posted by Deanna Leonti, Sunday, 23 August 2009 12:13:24 AM



As a devout atheist and practicing " love-thy-neighbour " schism, this debate appears to have been hijacked and derailed.

One of the fundamentals of robust semantics is to adhere to the script. Citing " red-herrings " and weasel words to divert attention is strictly verboten. Personality vilification is another. Some of the more recent luminaries of OLO stultify healthy discussion, never read the ' script ' and go off in a tangent out of synch, pursuing some miasmic agenda !

So much for our lauded Universities, and Julia Gillard's much vaunted Educational system.

Rabbi Ashar Lipner - you have my undying gratitude in bringing revelancy to the debate.

Feel free to visit us. You are always welcome in our humble abode.

Shalom
Posted by shellback, Monday, 24 August 2009 7:44:01 AM



Shellback – The debate has not been hi-jacked it has exposed the article for what it is. It is one person’s personal grievance masquerading as concern for victims of child sexual abuse. Anyone who abuses these forums for their own personal agenda should be exposed in the hope that they do not do it again.

If the author was genuinely concerned about the victims he could have written a perfectly reasoned argument about the mismanagement of the Catholic Church. It has been done many times before. It just needs to be reasonable and logical. It does not need to include any of his personal information. We did not even need to know that he was Jewish.

What more needs to be said about the situation anyway? Any sexual abuse is wrong and covering it up is wrong. How many ways are there to say the same thing? A lot needs to be done to help and support victims and to obtain justice where possible. This is practical help. If the author is so concerned perhaps he should use his energy to set up counselling services or help with legal expenses.

It seems to me that he is more concerned that the Catholic Church has brought religious groups into disrepute and that he is afraid that some of the mud may stick on the synagogue. If he was really secure in his righteousness then he should not be so worried.
Posted by phanto, Monday, 24 August 2009 11:40:02 AM


All:

Without belabouring the point and sounding repetitive, the article by Rabbi Lipner was selected ( as I understand it ) by the Editorial staff of OLO, from a multutude of modern, contentious essayist.

His cv dwarfs many Academics, Political identities and celebrities. His work is known throughout Europe, Israel and abroad. He is widely read, and is credited with numerous Books, journals, essays etc. The New York Times, Guardian, Economist, Times etc publishes his works regularly. He is widely sought after, and in great demand.

As for his philanthropy, community works and tireless energies for directing welfare groups, migrants, displaced persons, refugees etc - He is the recipient of countless Awards and accolades.

Finally, what is your claim to fame ?
Posted by shellback, Monday, 24 August 2009 3:26:55 PM


shellback - we don't need a claim to fame. Our arguments stand or fall on their own merits. Just because someone has a string of credentials doesn't mean he is incapable of abusing his power to promote his own personal agenda.
Posted by phanto, Monday, 24 August 2009 5:20:28 PM




phanto, Radical, extremist, loony, left wing, femanazis have been desperately looking for, all cases of, all forms of, child abuse by fathers for several decades now in all western, English speaking democracies. As you well know, and 1% of sexual abuse was all they could find. I personally have met hundreds of people, who were sexually abused as children and only 2 of whom, by their biological father, and in both cases, those individuals had no problem telling anybody who would listen, about what their fathers had done to them.

Child sexual abuse has been known about for thousands of years. Extensive debauchery of all kinds, including child sexual abuse, in the catholic church, during the first millennium, is, why, the policy of celibacy was started in the first place. The writing of Charles Dickens and Oscar Wilde, also cover all forms of child abuse.

suzeonline, i am sure, that there would NOT, have been anything, about it in the press, as we both know, that the mass media, is chock a block full of female journalists, who assiduously avoid, all mention, of any child abuse, by women. As do all DOCS staff in all states and territories, avoid investigating abuse of children by women. Which is why not many women have been caught so far.

I was not, and never have, lumped all, single mothers in the same basket, but the type of "good" single mothers you mention are in the minority, like the "allegedly" bad men, also in the minority.

So YES, the under reporting, and conviction, of females for child sexual abuse, (as well as all other, forms of abuse) can, be, disputed.

BTW, shellback was quite right about author and article.
Posted by Formersnag, Monday, 24 August 2009 5:34:49 PM

It seems to me that the point about criticizing the "catholic" church re its child abuse and sexuality problems, and its collective inability to be staight about pedophile priests is that the church claims to be the only source of truth in the world--even ABSOLUTE truth.

Plus it claims to be the only bastion against the alleged rot of "relativism", especially in relation to sexual morality. The right-wing catholic blogo-sphere is full of this pretentious righteous posturing

It is thus quite rightly hoisted on the petard of its own pretentious hypocritical double-mindedness.

Yes members of other organizations, both religious and secular have their sexual exploiters and abusers too.

But they generally do not pretend to be the only source of truth, even absolute truth, in the world.
Posted by Ho Hum, Friday, 21 August 2009 6:11:49 PM



"When facing your own conscience and being tempted to play politics with the lives of innocent children, remember that NO God, not the God believed in by Jews, Christians or Muslims, (and not even the God that atheists reject), could possibly countenance the violation of innocent children."

Very true Asher. I don't believe that if there was a higher being in charge of the earths morality, they would allow such evil to happen.
Therefore I find it easy not to believe in a God at all.
In my view, paedophile religious leaders should be even more strenuously punished than the other scum paedophiles.
Posted by suzeonline, Friday, 21 August 2009 8:43:48 PM



Just because the church says that priests are special and even priests themselves say they are special it does not make it true. They should be criticised for their sexual abuse and not for their self-delusions. They should be treated like anyone else who commits the crime of sexual abuse. You cannot add years to their punishment because they have been deluded by their own hype. If being deluded was a crime we’d all be in strife. They are just human beings and are entitled to the same justice as any other human being.

People act outraged because priests do not do live up to the image that they and others project of them. They only have that image because some have put them on a pedestal for their own needs. A big part of the problem is the failure of some parents to respond appropriately when children report sexual abuse at the hands of clergy. The parents do not want to believe it to be true because it threatens their dependence on religion. Children do not put themselves in danger – their parents do. It is not only a question of child abuse for the parents it is also a question of why people need religion.

Having an exalted view of any human being is very unhealthy. No one is better than anyone else by virtue of their public role. Being more outraged at the behaviour of priests as compared to other citizens says more about the outraged person than the priest. Many people who have resentment towards the church for other reasons often jump on the bandwagon and love to point out the failure of priests to live up to an image that they no longer even subscribe to.

Conversely you could argue the duty of care that a father has towards his daughter may be much more serious than the duty of care of a priest towards that same daughter. Why are we not equally outraged by incest? It does not diminish the crime just because a father does not promote himself as a bastion of virtue
Posted by phanto, Friday, 21 August 2009 9:44:14 PM

Dear phanto, The stats on sexual abuse of children by their fathers is 1%. Why are you suggesting that fathers are responsible for most it, when the evidence, is, that somebody else is responsible, 99% of the time? One, common, problem is the new, "bad boy", BF, that many deadbeat, single, mothers, take up with, after, leaving a perfectly good father, because they were a little bored, and too lazy or stupid to do some couples counselling.

All posters, so far, why have none of you, (feminists especially) mentioned the plight of girls, in catholic, all girl schools, which are run by nuns? Are you seriously, suggesting that, no, equally frustrated, celibate nun, has never, ever, been involved in lesbian sex with other nuns or girls at a catholic girls school, anywhere in the world?

Are you seriously suggesting that no nuns have ever been responsible for physical abuse or cruelty?

I personally have met and spoken with survivors of both genders who were beaten by nuns, or, the gardener, following orders, from the senior nun.

phanto, "methinks, the pot, is calling the kettle, black" and you, may be pursuing an agenda, of your own, to, blame all abuse of children, on men, and completely ignore the abuse of children, by women. Do you support, the rights, of every deadbeat, single, mother to neglect and abuse her children?
Posted by Formersnag, Saturday, 22 August 2009 12:08:08 PM

The eloquent Rabbi Ashar Lipner has been misinterpreted and critically maligned by readers of OLO. Seems critics are more intent on discrediting the Author, then evaluating the gist of his article.

The appointment of pro-Nazi Bishop Williamson may not have been physically appointed by Pope Benedict, but to be sure, everything emanating from the Vatican must be sanctioned by His Holiness's imprimatur. Thousands of priest ( all religions ) monks, nuns were purged, incarcerated, and sent to the gas chambers. Those evading prosecution practiced a pseudo religion, and at the time, were assidiously careful to preach anything but the Nazi propaganda. Some call them collaborators. Pope Pius XII.

The diasporas Catholic Church is suffering for the sins of a few paedophilic priest, just like any giant Corporation with hundreds and thousands of employees. Today, every parish in Oz,is operating below par - given the seminaries are bereft of zealous recruits. More lay members are ursurping the duties performed by priest. Eventually, their numbers will cease. Priest are being imported from Poland, Nigeria, and Vietnam to mitigate the scarcity.

Many priest,particularly in the USA, have been prosecuted, defrocked and goaled for their sexuality. In Ireland, South America, Mexico and the Phillippines, priest are venerated, and their sexual proclivities, abuse, etc are tolerated, even condoned. Some, lead a double life, supported by their parish, to the extent of rearing their offspring. In Ireland, the Government supports the clergy to rear orphans, unwanted children etc.

The Holocaust should be remembered, as a reminder of man's inhumanity to his siblings. The " master race " is a myth, and no one is more superior than his neighbour. The Jewish, " final solution " liquidation was only a side show. Academics, gypsies, foreigners, deviates, collaborators etc made up 60/70 per cent of the inmates at Auschwitz, Belsen etc.

Well done Rabbi.
Posted by dalma, Saturday, 22 August 2009 12:15:15 PM

Formersnag, yes I spent 12 years in a Catholic girls college and yes some of the nuns were cruel to us. They doled out physical punishment to us, but at no stage did I ever hear of a nun committing sexual abuse on children.
There probably are some twisted nuns somewhere who may have done this, but if so, then I am sure there would have been plenty about it in the press!

>"One, common, problem is the new, "bad boy", BF, that many deadbeat, single, mothers, take up with, after, leaving a perfectly good father, because they were a little bored, and too lazy or stupid to do some couples counselling."

Hey what about the single mothers left holding the baby when fathers have run off in fright at the responsibility? What about the fathers running off with another woman? Many of these men are quite happy to have sex with these women, but don't deal with the results very well. You can't lump all single mothers in the same basket Formersnag.

I do agree though that many paedophiles prey on single, vulnerable mothers to get access to their children, just as they become Priests or teachers to get close to children.

This does NOT mean that all men are potential child-abusers, just that most of those convicted of the crime have been men. This fact cannot be disputed
Posted by suzeonline, Saturday, 22 August 2009 6:19:18 PM


Formersnag - The stats on sexual abuse of children by their fathers is 1%. Why are you suggesting that fathers are responsible for most it, when the evidence, is, that somebody else is responsible, 99% of the time?

Just because there is no evidence for something doesn’t mean it is not true. Until recent years there was no evidence of sexual abuse among the clergy but now we know it has existed for decades. I suggest it is much more difficult to admit that you have been abused by your father than by your local priest. It would be even harder to bring criminal proceedings against your father.

This discussion is about sexual abuse and not about other types of abuse. No one is saying that there are not other types of abuse perpetrated by both men and women
Posted by phanto, Saturday, 22 August 2009 8:02:02 PM


dalma,

The fact the holocaust was even brought up in an article about Catholic priets and child abuse shows how politicised and meaningless it has become. Where is the connection?

Jews have long used the holocaust to claim some sort of moral superiority over the rest of us - even condescending to designate some people during the second world war as 'righteous gentiles' for helping Jews. This, of course, implies the other millions who didn't help Jews were somehow immoral. This includes the 15 million Russians who perished and the millions from other countries who gave their lives to stop Hitler. A continent destroyed, 25 million dead and hundreds of millions homeless and destitute. But they weren't Jewish so we don't hear about them.

And as for your canard about not forgetting so its not repeated. Well, it has been repeated. In Cambodia, in Bosnia and in Rwanda. But again, these victims weren't Jewish so I guess they don't count.

Perhaps you could ask your 'eloquent' Rabbi what Jews did to help the Cambodians during Pol Pot's reign of terror, or how much aid he sent to victims of Rwanda's violent genocide?
Posted by dane, Saturday, 22 August 2009 8:04:03 PM



Thank You Rabbi Dr Asher Lipner,

From the Almighty's lips to your ears!.
May the Loving Creator of the Universe forever shine abundent Blessings upon you
and yours! :)

May the Spirit of Truth & Wisdom live in the mind & hearts of all men like a bell
for the sound of echoing Justice to reign!

:)
Posted by Deanna Leonti, Sunday, 23 August 2009 12:13:24 AM


As a devout atheist and practicing " love-thy-neighbour " schism, this debate appears to have been hijacked and derailed.

One of the fundamentals of robust semantics is to adhere to the script. Citing " red-herrings " and weasel words to divert attention is strictly verboten. Personality vilification is another. Some of the more recent luminaries of OLO stultify healthy discussion, never read the ' script ' and go off in a tangent out of synch, pursuing some miasmic agenda !

So much for our lauded Universities, and Julia Gillard's much vaunted Educational system.

Rabbi Ashar Lipner - you have my undying gratitude in bringing revelancy to the debate.

Feel free to visit us. You are always welcome in our humble abode.

Shalom
Posted by shellback, Monday, 24 August 2009 7:44:01 AM



Shellback – The debate has not been hi-jacked it has exposed the article for what it is. It is one person’s personal grievance masquerading as concern for victims of child sexual abuse. Anyone who abuses these forums for their own personal agenda should be exposed in the hope that they do not do it again.

If the author was genuinely concerned about the victims he could have written a perfectly reasoned argument about the mismanagement of the Catholic Church. It has been done many times before. It just needs to be reasonable and logical. It does not need to include any of his personal information. We did not even need to know that he was Jewish.

What more needs to be said about the situation anyway? Any sexual abuse is wrong and covering it up is wrong. How many ways are there to say the same thing? A lot needs to be done to help and support victims and to obtain justice where possible. This is practical help. If the author is so concerned perhaps he should use his energy to set up counselling services or help with legal expenses.

It seems to me that he is more concerned that the Catholic Church has brought religious groups into disrepute and that he is afraid that some of the mud may stick on the synagogue. If he was really secure in his righteousness then he should not be so worried.
Posted by phanto, Monday, 24 August 2009 11:40:02 AM



All:

Without belabouring the point and sounding repetitive, the article by Rabbi Lipner was selected ( as I understand it ) by the Editorial staff of OLO, from a multutude of modern, contentious essayist.

His cv dwarfs many Academics, Political identities and celebrities. His work is known throughout Europe, Israel and abroad. He is widely read, and is credited with numerous Books, journals, essays etc. The New York Times, Guardian, Economist, Times etc publishes his works regularly. He is widely sought after, and in great demand.

As for his philanthropy, community works and tireless energies for directing welfare groups, migrants, displaced persons, refugees etc - He is the recipient of countless Awards and accolades.

Finally, what is your claim to fame ?
Posted by shellback, Monday, 24 August 2009 3:26:55 PM

shellback - we don't need a claim to fame. Our arguments stand or fall on their own merits. Just because someone has a string of credentials doesn't mean he is incapable of abusing his power to promote his own personal agenda.
Posted by phanto, Monday, 24 August 2009 5:20:28 PM



phanto, Radical, extremist, loony, left wing, femanazis have been desperately looking for, all cases of, all forms of, child abuse by fathers for several decades now in all western, English speaking democracies. As you well know, and 1% of sexual abuse was all they could find. I personally have met hundreds of people, who were sexually abused as children and only 2 of whom, by their biological father, and in both cases, those individuals had no problem telling anybody who would listen, about what their fathers had done to them.

Child sexual abuse has been known about for thousands of years. Extensive debauchery of all kinds, including child sexual abuse, in the catholic church, during the first millennium, is, why, the policy of celibacy was started in the first place. The writing of Charles Dickens and Oscar Wilde, also cover all forms of child abuse.

suzeonline, i am sure, that there would NOT, have been anything, about it in the press, as we both know, that the mass media, is chock a block full of female journalists, who assiduously avoid, all mention, of any child abuse, by women. As do all DOCS staff in all states and territories, avoid investigating abuse of children by women. Which is why not many women have been caught so far.

I was not, and never have, lumped all, single mothers in the same basket, but the type of "good" single mothers you mention are in the minority, like the "allegedly" bad men, also in the minority.

So YES, the under reporting, and conviction, of females for child sexual abuse, (as well as all other, forms of abuse) can, be, disputed.

BTW, shellback was quite right about author and article.
Posted by Formersnag, Monday, 24 August 2009 5:34:49 PM

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